Death Penalty

[MIP]

If I had to chose a punishment for myself, I'd rather the death penalty than a life sentence in prison. Not everyone fears death, that kind of risk wouldn't bother alot of criminals anymore than the thought of prison would. It doesn't work.

[Matthew_McNally]

It doesn't work.

←

it depends on what you think its supposed to achieve.

tax payers money would not be wasted on keeping scum breathing.

thats working for me

[MIP]

It doesn't work.

←

it depends on what you think its supposed to achieve.

tax payers money would not be wasted on keeping scum breathing.

thats working for me

←

Innocent people would die by a system that can never be full proof, so unfortunatly it can't work. As much as I agree that there are scum out there that deserve nothing more than to be loaded into an artillary canon and fired at the side of a mountain, you simply cannot create a system that wouldn't inadvertantly kill innocent people.

I imagine somthing like this:

A prison linked to various factories that require simple repetative manual labour, where output quality can easily be assessed.

If you go to prison, you start on the middle floor in a cell with your choice of books, a basic bed, a small amount of sunlight, reasonably clean.

If the quality/rate of your work in the factories is good, you get to go up a floor with better cells, more comfort, better food, maybe a tv.

If the quality/rate of your work is bad, you go down a floor and your quality of life gets worse. Untill your on the bottom floor living off stale crap, no sunlight, a mat on a concrete floor to sleep on and beatings are 'accidently' ignored.

For several hours a day, you are physically forced to pay constant attention to video that shows as graphically as posible, the impact of your crime on society and people.

A prison that makes money through factory output, and attepts to teach people the value of work, and the impact of crime.

Repeat offenders on their third offense join the queue for the artillery range. Perhaps make a tv show where you make money off the public betting how close to the bullseye you can 'splat the prisoner'.

[Matthew_McNally]

If you go to prison, you start on the middle floor in a cell with your choice of books, a basic bed, a small amount of sunlight, reasonably clean.

←

for criminals?

there are people living on streets - and you want to give criminals their choice in books?

ubik them. stick them in a hole. no guards. throw in the carcass of a cow every other day.

sounds horrible? somewhere you really wouldnt want to be?

dont break the law then.

lets face it - people are in jail by choice.

Commiting a crime involves a CHOICE.

no-one accidentally breaks into a house.

no-one steals a car by accident.

no-one trips ups, and inadvertently finds themselves raping a woman.

its a deliberate decision

[Pauline_329]

Hey all,

Glad to see that plenty others support the death penalty.

We all work to earn money to pay taxes... why should our hard-earned cash go into providing (pretty good) food and facilities for criminals in prison?

These "scum" have made the decision to commit a crime, yet we have to pay for them? No! The punishment must fit the crime:

1. To prevent the individual from re-offending, and

2. To deter others.

Take the Moors murderers or other murderers, who were proven beyond doubt guilty of these horrendous crimes. I think these people are beyond help, and are just wasting taxpayers' money in prison.

Think of the victims' families. A "life sentence" does not mean life. Many murderers get out after a few years. The two boys who killed Jamie Bulger got a few years in a kids' institution, where they received first class education, then were released with new identities to "protect them"... has the world gone MAD???

They are KILLERS!

One statement: "Bring out the noose!"... don't waste the bullets, just let 'em hang!

[Pauline_329]

I do also like MIP's theory of rewarding or punishing prisoners working in factories. Maybe they would learn from it, maybe not. This would be particularly good punishment for crimes such as theft, anti-social behaviour... ie teaching them to have respect for others, that's what seems to be lacking in this country at the moment.

I know for sure though that if someone I knew was killed and the evidence proved beyond doubt that person x was the killer, I'd want them out of the equation, ie hang 'em.

[Bibbs]

I know for sure though that if someone I knew was killed and the evidence proved beyond doubt that person x was the killer, I'd want them out of the equation, ie hang 'em.

←

See, I think that is a waste ..

We should use them as slave labour.

[Matthew_McNally]

I do also like MIP's theory of rewarding or punishing prisoners working in factories. Maybe they would learn from it, maybe not. This would be particularly good punishment for crimes such as theft, anti-social behaviour... ie teaching them to have respect for others, that's what seems to be lacking in this country at the moment.

←

there are fine upstanding citizens in this country who are out of work through no fault of their own.

and you want to give jobs to criminals.

I'll say it again - ubik them.

I do not care how badly you want to treat scum who break into peoples houses, cars, assault people - never mind murderers and rapists.

As far as I am concerned - hang em by their toes in the streets so we can kick the crap out of them.

You dont like this? The idea of this happening to you scares you?

DONT COMMIT CRIMES - its really easy

[JAHill]

(Not aimed at anyone in particular, just a thought)

Imagine this. You're doing 40 in a 30 area. Lots of people do, you can't deny it.

A kid runs out in front of you and you don't stop in time. Dead kid.

Parents get the press and good lawyers on their side. You're screwed because we now have a death penalty.

The media jumps all over the case. "High Speed Killer". "Death by Driving".

Sentence is passed, after all, you broke the law by speeding during which you killed an innocent child.

You are taken outside and shot. Bang. Done. Taxpayer feels all the better for it.

Anything less would be an insult to the parents.

Child murdering scum.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

[Matthew_McNally]

but - you KNEW the risks when you were committing the crime.

you have NO-ONE to blame but yourself.

You carry the accountability and respoonsibility for your actions and the results thereof.

[JAHill]

but - you KNEW the risks when you were committing the crime.

you have NO-ONE to blame but yourself.

You carry the accountability and respoonsibility for your actions and the results thereof.

←

Which is exactly my point. Wouldn't just be a few points and a fine anymore would it? I doubt there is anybody here that hasn't driven above the 30 limit either intentionally or otherwise. It's easy to do as we're all looking out for cameras, watching our speed *and* trying to keep an eye on the road at the same time.

[Nick SR]

I don't agree with paying for them .. make them "earn" their way .. get them doing stuff ..

Hour on the tredmill, hour breaking rocks .. slice of bread.

2 hours .. glass of water ..

And let the prisons rot, I want to see rats, lice, roaches .. it's not "humaine" but they opted out of humanity when they did stuff like that ..

←

Yeah and for each prisoner i had, there would be 1 duck in the pond which the prisoners could see, when the prisioner has his/her slice of bread i would let them see me giving the duck 2 :D and enjoying it

[Avensis wagon]

Hopefully the latter was some sort of facetious irony!

(God that banner ad at the top is annoying. Argh! Stop flashing will ya!)

Exactly, it's very easy to make sweeping statements, judge and condemn.

There ARE people who should never be let out -- like the rapist over here who assaulted a woman several times and was let out some years later despite the prison governer's strictest warnings against it. The rapist stalked and raped the same woman within days of his release. This is the severe end of the soft approach and it's disgusting that the system failed this woman.

On the other hand, anyone is capable of something that would be judged as severely criminal if the circumstances are extreme enough. Young people (particularly men) can make hot-headed mistakes. A split second and your life is gone. I believe in second chances where appropriate and where the person poses no threat to society.

[Fidgits]

Interesting points Matthew, but surely the punishment should be proportional to the crime?

Say a homeless boy steals an Apple from a fruit stand - should he have his hands cut off as they do in Saudi?

If a women living alone hits an intruder with a rolling pin and kills him, should she be dragged into the street and shot?

We all agree, the punishment should be a deterrant, but we are not barbarians - The christians slaughtered thousands of Pagans on this very island for refusing to denounce their beliefs and convert to Christianity, I would like to think, in this modern age, we are more civilised than that.

[Avensis wagon]

oops, i meant that to apply to JAHill's last statement two or three posts above.

Anyway, can anyone set up a vote on this?

[Bibbs]

Imagine this. You're doing 40 in a 30 area. Lots of people do, you can't deny it.

A kid runs out in front of you and you don't stop in time. Dead kid.

..

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

←

If it's the LAW then you have NO comeback ..

If there was a law that said farting was illegal and punishable by death .. don't !Removed! ;) It's not hard to not break the law, it's often you have to act to break it.

[JAHill]

We all agree, the punishment should be a deterrant, but we are not barbarians - The christians slaughtered thousands of Pagans on this very island for refusing to denounce their beliefs and convert to Christianity, I would like to think, in this modern age, we are more civilised than that.

←

Which comes back to the point made many times by many people that capital punishment does not deter those it is aimed at.

Gang members aren't going to give a damn... They face death every time they take on another gang. Murderers will, by their nature, understand what death "means" and will be unlikely to fear it. Spending the rest of their life in a high security prison will most likely scare them sh**less. "You're going to prison and you're going to die in prison." It *is* a sort of death penalty in a way, just with a long, long wait before you die. With regards to the cost, I do agree that they should pay their way.

If it's the LAW then you have NO comeback ..

If there was a law that said farting was illegal and punishable by death .. don't !Removed! ;) It's not hard to not break the law, it's often you have to act to break it.

←

Fair enough. If that's what you want... but you can't avoid farting. Plus if you held it all in, you could wipe out a small family by exploding! :P

[Matthew_McNally]

Say a homeless boy steals an apple from a fruit stand - should he have his hands cut off as they do in Saudi?

I haven't advocated cutting off hands.

He should be put in jail.

I will never take the side of the criminal over the side of the person trying to earn a legitimate living - no matter how "cutesy" or "wont someone please think of the children" you make the example.

He's a thief - and should be treated as such.

Think of it this way.

A cute little waif, with a button nose and adorable eyes breaks into your car for the change in the coinbox - is this OK by you? after all, he's a lil' homeless orphan.

Or this same kid smashes his way into your house to rob DVDs to sell for food.

This acceptable to you?

If a women living alone hits an intruder with a rolling pin and kills him, should she be dragged into the street and shot?

nor have I advocated vigilantism.

Any death penalties would done after a fair trial.

If a jury finds the woman guilty of a capital offence, and the judge felt that captial punishment was appropriate - then yes - she gets the bullet.

We all agree, the punishment should be a deterrant, but we are not barbarians - The christians slaughtered thousands of Pagans on this very island for refusing to denounce their beliefs and convert to Christianity, I would like to think, in this modern age, we are more civilised than that.

←

and the relevance of this to a discussion on the death penalty is?

[Fidgits]

valid points...

But we if we are talking capital punishment, why not corporal Matt? I guess I just didnt see the granuality in your responses, they seemed quite absolute. I guess my two examples were, well, manslaughter is different to murder, stealing an Apple is different to breaking into someones house...

Crime is a very granular thing, and the punishment should relfect the crime... And i am against community service, and suspended services, and absolutley for making prisons tougher, but its a complex issue.

My final point was to say, have we not moved on as a society? I agree prisons are too soft, but murdering people is not the answer, America proves this, they have the death penalty, and have a huge number of murders...

[Matthew_McNally]

valid points...

But we if we are talking capital punishment, why not corporal Matt?

this is not a thread about corporal punishment - lets not go off topic mate

My final point was to say, have we not moved on as a society? I agree prisons are too soft, but murdering people is not the answer, America proves this, they have the death penalty, and have a huge number of murders...

←

They also have a huge population, with constituitional rights to own firearms.

I dont think we can make a like for like comparison between the UK and US, due to these, and other factors.

Additionally, the death penalty in America is not the deterrent it should be, due to the long drawn out process of appeals, reprises etc.

[Fidgits]

valid points...

But we if we are talking capital punishment, why not corporal Matt?

this is not a thread about corporal punishment - lets not go off topic mate

Not exactly a long way off topic Matt... i mean, okay, different, but surely if your for Capital punishment, you must be for corporal punishment?

My final point was to say, have we not moved on as a society? I agree prisons are too soft, but murdering people is not the answer, America proves this, they have the death penalty, and have a huge number of murders...

←

They also have a huge population, with constituitional rights to own firearms.

I dont think we can make a like for like comparison between the UK and US, due to these, and other factors.

Additionally, the death penalty in America is not the deterrent it should be, due to the long drawn out process of appeals, reprises etc.

←

Okay, but Canada has more firearms per head than the US, and less than a 5% of the murder rate (i cant remember the exact figures off hand)...

The US proves the death penalty in itself is not a deterrant...

[Matthew_McNally]

The US proves the death penalty in itself is not a deterrant...

←

as its impossible to determine how many people have refrained from commiting murder due to fear of the death penalty - so you cannot draw that conclusion.

the only conclusion you can draw is that there are people stupid enough to commit murder when they know that the death penalty is a possiblity.

And there is no end to the stupidity of humans I'm afraid

[Fidgits]

The US proves the death penalty in itself is not a deterrant...

←

as its impossible to determine how many people have refrained from commiting murder due to fear of the death penalty - so you cannot draw that conclusion.

the only conclusion you can draw is that there are people stupid enough to commit murder when they know that the death penalty is a possiblity.

And there is no end to the stupidity of humans I'm afraid

←

that, i think, sums it up perfectly...

no matter how bad the punishments are, there will be those still stupid enough to believe they can get away with the crime...

*at this point, if i had the time and the inclination, i would research the figures between states with and without the death penalty, look at murder growth and reduction for any states that have introduced/stopped using the death penalty to attempt to actually figure out if the death penalty had any effect on the murder rate. As it is, i cant be bothered, so ill accept your point.

[Matthew_McNally]

gah - missed this bit :P

Okay, but Canada has more firearms per head than the US, and less than a 5% of the murder rate (i cant remember the exact figures off hand)...

←

this is true (I dont know the numbers either - but its extremely low. I've seen Bowling For Columbine too :D ).

I would say this indicates America's propensity for gun violence - that would be a good reason for the higher murder rate - despite the deterrant of the death penalty.

[Matthew_McNally]

that, i think, sums it up perfectly...

no matter how bad the punishments are, there will be those still stupid enough to believe they can get away with the crime...

←

stupidity does not excuse you.

Nor does it remove your personal accountability and responsibility for your actions.

It does not make an argument for or against anything.