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Carina E Noisy


tivoli pete
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:(

I have been having some serious noise problems with my Carina E - ongoing ones from when my car was worked on by a garage. I was under the impression that it was valve clearances, as it sounds like they are really way off. I took it to a garage for them to check the clearances, and they found that they were all in tolerance. They listened with a stethoscope but were unable to tell what or where the noise was coming from.

I am at a loss to know what to look for or check next??

Has anyone got any ideas? Or has anyone had similar problems?

Please help!

tivoli pete

:crybaby:

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Not arguing, but as a person who uses stephoscopes on cars I have a hard time beleaving they can not find a sound you can hear with your ears.

I have listened to cars and told people witch lifter had failed before they even took the valve covers off.

Maybe another garage is needed.

Doctors hear air in your lungs and your heart beat in your chest. Sure would think they would hear moving metal parts banging on each other.

Unless the rails that hold the valves are loose, I still think there not adjusted right.

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Thanks for the support MyV6Flys, it sounds like your a useful person to have around. I have a reasonable knowledge of engine mechanics, but this has got me baffled.

Given your knowledge of top ends, perhaps you could consider this; there is something about this that does not add up. Both myself and another member of these forums have both got the very same noise and it seems that the circumstances are identical too. We have both had water pump and timing belt changes - and since this work has been carried out, the noises have begun. Even Toyota dealers cannot say what is wrong. Have you any ideas on what else there is that could possibly cause a sound like poor tappet adjustment. These rails, what and where are they in relation to the two camshafts?

Thanks,

Tivoli Pete.

:help:

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Rails...

When you pull the valve cover off and look down, there is a long shaft that all the lifters/valves live on. That's what I'm calling the rail, Toyota may have a different name for the shaft. I really dought the rail it's self is loose, as I think they would have figured that out checking the vavle clearance.

There are two kinds of stephoscopes out there. The mechanic and the Doctors. The machanics has a long shaft on the end. Wich makes it real hard to find or track vacume leaks or motor sounds.

I don't know where you live but in the states, we can buy a Doctors stephoscope at medical stores. They go from 10 dollers to 1000 dollers. The 10 doller ones work fine. If you can buy one, I'm thinking you can find the sound.

Start the car, hold the end the Doc puts on your chest over the motor. One side will be louder than the other. Follow the sound, Of Course watch out for moving Parts. But you should be able to pin point were the sound is coming from using a Doc's scope. Set it on one side of the valve cover, then the other, if it is the valves one side will be louder. If you don't hear a change there. It's not them making the sound. So move to where the timming belt lives. Often there is tensioners around the belts to keep them tight or to take up the flex as the motor rev's. One of those may be loose causing the sound.

That would be my first guess as the sound started after that area was worked on.

In passing you can hear other things too. Like water moving through the hoses, injectors firing.....Just play you may be amaized. 10 bucks is not much for what you may find out.

I will do some more checking in a book I have later, i don't have it with me now.

Check back tomorrow.

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Well I did some looking today. There is a tensioner in there and my first guess is that it is loose. The timing belt goes around 6 gears if your running the 4 cylinder. One of them may have gotten loose during the belt change and are hanging a little loose on the shaft. Still held in place well enough to work by the cover that goes over the timing belt.

sure would be nice to be there to hear the thing.

Good Luck.

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Thanks again,

I will check this out. I have to admit, I have suspected the tensioner myself, I don't know if you can even have a situation where the timing belt is too tight?

Do you know off the top of your head whether the 7A-FE engine would be damaged by a timing belt failure - ie, would the pistons hit the valves?

Pete.

:unsure:

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While I'm not at all new to motors, I am new to Toyota motors. So when I bought my 97 V6 I bought a book. It has 1997 thru 1999. It has a 5S-FE 4 cylinder in it and it says CAUTION: If the timming belt broke during operation, the valves may have hit the pistons causing damage.

So that's the best I can give you. My guess is your 7A would do the same thing. Funny in looking at the book, it has a spring on the tension thing to keep it tight. What ever works......??

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The valves probably wouldn't start rattling anyway to be honest on these, it's not like they're hydraulic or anything. They should be shim adjusted, and should last for miles before any adjustment is needed due to wear.

But to be honest, if it's happened since they worked on your car then chances are they caused it. They sound like they need their ubiks kicking!

The timing belt tensioner could cause this as mentioned. How's the engine running appart from the sound? I'm not sure about the valves hitting the pistons on this engine, but i'd say it's not worth the risk. Your belt may not break, but if the tensioner is loose then it's highly likely it could skip a few teeth which can cause the same sort of damage on the right engine.

:thumbsup:

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  • 2 months later...
;) Thanks for that.

I haven't checked back here for a while, work commitments and all. I still haven't got to the bottom of this yet. I'm interested to know how the timing belt tensioner causes the noise?

Tivoli Pete. :thumbsup:

Have you got 3sFE? cos i got the same problem as you. Sounds like a diesel since I had new cambelt.

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I was wondering what happened to you and the car. Not sure on your model, but as most bolt to the motor .

If it was not tightened down correctly it may have worked loose, and as the belt is always moving, it would cause the tensioner to bounce around. Hitting on the motor or the bolts that should be holding it tight.

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Also I read on another form that a guy just took a piece of graden hose, put one end to his ear, the other up to the motor.

Said he found the noise real fast, had to watch out for moving parts with the big hose. But he found the noise.

Do you have extra heater hose or garden hose around??

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:) Mine is the 7A-FE but I imagine there's not a lot of difference between it and the 3SFE.

I think that the FE series was designed for ultra-lean burn.

I'll try the hose, but the noise is so loud that is seems to come from anywhere around the top end.

I was wondering if it could be due to timimg - sort of like a pinking or detonation problem, again due to the maladjustment of the timing belt.

What do think??

Tivoli Pete. :thumbsup:

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As a rule if a timing belt is off by just one tooth, you know it.

So "I" would rule that out.

I wonder if maybe one of the guides the timing belt rides on loosened. In my head this is what I'm thinking.

The bolt that hold a tensioner to the motor has cmae loose. It can not back all the way out because the timing chain cover will not let the bolt back all the way out. So the tensioner can not fall either. So with both being trapped by the timing chain cover....they bang around.

Of course I have not heard or seen the car...so this is just a guess in my head. Infact if you know what the timing chain cover is......while the motor is running put the tip of a screw driver on it, hold it straight up. Put your finger nail on the tip of it. Do you feeling a banging on your finger nail at the same time as you hear the banging.

If you can feel it at the same time as you hear it...then I think it's a good guess the sound is coming from in there.

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:blink: Wow! There's not much room to get in to the cam belt casing. I suppose I will have to take off all of the pulleys and belts to get the cover right off??

I need to take the car off the road and have a really good look around the timing belt and tensioner.

Tivoli Pete. :thumbsup:

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  • 2 weeks later...

:lol:

No my engine is the 7A-FE, and the noise is actually worst when the engine is at idle.

I was trying to find some replacement spark plugs for it because it is running a bit rough now. I didn't realise that they were so hard to find. Three large Halfords warehouse stores didn't have the NGK recommended plugs which I think are BRK6EP-13. They are platinum plugs.

Does anyone know whether these are the correct plugs, and where I can reliably get a set in the UK?

Cheers!

Tivoli Pete :thumbsup:

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I have just taken the car to a Toyata Dealers in Crawley near where I live.

The guy listened to the engine, and I explained the history about the engine problems I have had.

He was suggesting that perhaps the timing was just a tooth out on the belt.

I then thought a bit about the cylinder head job that was done, and the fact that the head was skimmed to restore the flatness of the mating surface. Would the new cylinder head gasket need to be thicker to compensate, and if so, would the failure to install a thicker one result in a possible (although slight) interference between the pistons and valves??

I may be clutching at straws here, I'm getting fairly desperate to get this sorted without a huge bill.

Any help appreciated.

Tivoli Pete.

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In every motor I've seen, one off and it don't run right. I can't say he is wrong......but I would not drop any money till I talked to others.......

The head shave to restore a flat serface should not require a thicker gasket. Unless yours over heated REAL bad, I find it hard to believe they had to take more then the thickness of 2 or 3 thumb nails off.

Sorry I'm not more help, the machanic may be thinking like me that there is just somthing loose in there and wants to open it up to look. So to approve the idea he said the belt is one tooth off, let me check it and see.

OK here's another Idea....Take a large screw driver and put the flat part on the housing for the timing chain cover. On the tip of the other end either press the tip of your finger nail on it hard, or place you ear on the end of the screw driver. If there is something ratteling against the cover the rattle will transfer it's self to the screw driver and you will feel or hear the sound coming up the driver.

It's what mechnic's did before stepsoscopes.

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  • 4 weeks later...

:D Yes! At last - I have fixed it!!

After months of despair and frustration at the possibility of owning a permanently noisy car, I decided to take matters in to my own hands.

I found myself looking at the camshafts cam followers and timing belts in very close detail - using my Haynes manual.

I decided to take the top off and check the timing marks on all of the pulleys, from the crankshaft to the two cams. I carried out an ignition timing check with the diagnostic socket link in place, and found that it was only about 4 degrees BTDC, which is miles out, as the book states for the 7A-FE should be 10.

I looked carefully at both of the camshafts and in particular, the drive transfer gears (the exhaust cam is driven by the cam belt, and transfers the drive to the inlet camshaft with a gear assembly). I noticed that the inlet cam gear was comprised of two separate gears pushed together and held with a large circlip.

It dawned on me that this was very much like the drive gearing in some video recorders that I have worked in in the past (I fix TVs and videos!) It is designed to stop backlash and noise.

I looked in the Haynes manual, and this was confirmed, it also went on at length about the internal springing and how to unload the spring pressure when the camshaft is un-meshed from its neighbour.

I was prepared to put money of this being the source of my noise - and it was!

I looked closely at the gear, and noticed that the service screw hole was not aligned - this meant that it wasn't under tension. I removed the camshaft, and using two bolts in the holes provided, loaded the spring until I was able to fit the service screw and tighten it down.

I reinstalled the camshaft and got all the marks lined up, refitted the bearing caps, and then removed the service screw. I replaced all the covers and added some Oil, and then started the engine. I rechecked the ignition timing, and adjusted it.

It was now running like silk, and even after it was nice and hot, it was still running sweetly.

So it seems that the morons at the garage I took it to had not loaded the anti-backlash gear correctly, and it was causing the clatter.

Thanks to everyone for their advice and tips - especially the stethoscope idea!!

I'm having a large Leffe Belgian beer to celebrate - Cheers!!

Tivoli Pete.

:thumbsup: :hokus-pokus:

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  • 2 months later...

Hi, great web site, im not new to toyota,but new to this site, but ive got a querry, looking through the site i see quite a few people have made comment re the noise from the top end of the 3SFE motor, welcome to the club, i have a 1994 corona EX 3sfe, 2 litre,and i have this problem as well, i had it in to the Toyota agent yesterday for a cambelt change, (124000ks) and they diagnosed it as noisy injectors, said its quite common with these motors, the noise sounds like tappet rattle, my wifes corrolla 1994 1600 4 afe doesnt rattle, and its done 183000ks, and my old corona 1989 3sf (carby model) was quiet as , (no injectors to rattle) do you reckon it is injectors?, and if so, is there acheap way to fix it?, ive tried STP injector cleaner, no improvement, (by the way my ons TRUENO used to rattle as well.

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