Dual Mass Flywheel

[taximark]

Right i have been reading some of the posts on here regarding the dmf, and was/is the problem on all of the cars or just pre 03 models, this is a very worrying thing to digest and seeing as it will be used as a taxi i'm reviewing my options on my next car.

I can live with things going wrong but i have know other people to suffer from this and reading one particular post on here got me thinking.

[taximark]

Right i have been reading some of the posts on here regarding the dmf, and was/is the problem on all of the cars or just pre 03 models, this is a very worrying thing to digest and seeing as it will be used as a taxi i'm reviewing my options on my next car.

I can live with things going wrong but i have know other people to suffer from this and reading one particular post on here got me thinking.

Anyone?

[Beagh1958]

To Taximark,

Regarding DMF. I have a T3s Estate registered early 2003 myself being the second owner. Flywheel started playing up around the 70,000 mile mark. So is this due general wear & tear or a built in problem??? I have F/S/H & have no record of Flywheel being replaced via previous owner. But the one thing I did was junk the whole lot & source a solid stell flywheel with 3 part clutch, sourced through work. Flywheel £++++++++++ but will never change again, only clutch kit if required. See what other Forum users think.

[Parts-King]

Anchorman has written a most excellent article on DMF here

Some vehicles will suffer, others will not, it's an unknown quantity

Beagh1958: I can understand you doing that, but you may come in for more trouble by replacing it with a solid flywheel, only time will tell

Kingo

[chatman]

To Taximark,

Regarding DMF. I have a T3s Estate registered early 2003 myself being the second owner. Flywheel started playing up around the 70,000 mile mark. So is this due general wear & tear or a built in problem??? I have F/S/H & have no record of Flywheel being replaced via previous owner. But the one thing I did was junk the whole lot & source a solid stell flywheel with 3 part clutch, sourced through work. Flywheel £++++++++++ but will never change again, only clutch kit if required. See what other Forum users think.

Taximark...

Take a look at this thread..HERE..same setup in RAV as in Avensis....

[Beagh1958]

To Parts-King,

In regards to posting regarding DMF by Anchorman. It is an exceptionally well written case for DMF & I doubt I could put a counter argument to discontinue use of DMF units as well as set out case. Apart from the shear cost when these items give up. I worked for many years for one of the last remaining, well allmost last Government-Public sector companies. Part of the job included changing twin plate clutch set-ups on DAF 85-95 tractor units, i am quite sure you can imagine the torque these engines develop. Being 8cyl plus, power pulses develop in different fashion, but still a solid steel flywheel. But other vehicles closer to Toyota DMF would be Variants of Transit vans & LDV vans, we would call the flywheels on these cush drives (rather like on the rear of modern sports road bike, i am sure most people have heard a bike being put into 1st gear & the resultant CLUNK as chain slack is taken up. Now a thing of the past on some bikes with cush drives allmost working in the same fashion as a DMF) but back to vans we have no end of trouble with these flywheels. With G/Box removed you can rock the flywheel from top to bottom which also results in destroyed starter motors. The only vans Transit & LDV vans that do not have this problem have solid flywheels fitted to vans with the exact same engines as cush drive flywheels

So I can see & understand case from both sides & would not advise people to take the route I have taken. I am merely pointing out another option that people can take which results in a lot more money left in your wallet. 90% of modern diesel engines have the same firing order, exactly the same as they did 10 to 15 yearas ago. I appreciate the job DMFs do, but when it comes to price I just think the customer if they have know other choice, if unable to carry out work themselves they are being completely ripped off. Just looking at problem from another angle. Regards to all, Beagh1958.

[Parts-King]

Yep, can't disagree with you, however, from the point of view of "giving advice" I wouldnt like to steer anybody in the unauthorised modification department, many on here are not competant in repairing their cars, they just come for support and advice. Many on here don't like the genuine brake discs and pads, to hard, too soft, dont last long enough, not good for boy racers, overheat, fade etc etc, and many give advice saying buy this, buy that, these are good, this does that job, before you know where you are, people start giving advice about a specific part fitted for there own specific needs. That is OK for them, but when somebody goes and fits something thats not standard, and gets into trouble, it only leads to a feeling of being mislead, even though the intentions were well placed. I try to give advice on genuine Toyota products and parts, and where I can, product or technical advice, I steer clear of unauthorised parts and modifications wherever possible, not because Toyota always have the best product, but because they do have the best back up if a genuine product fails, I am also in the business of selling genuine Toyota parts and pay TOC for the priveledge of being on here

Kingo

[cmia]

Just going to say one thing..

If Toyota Dual Mass flywheels are so good "genuine" parts,

then why is it that

1) So many flywheels have failed

2) Toyota has continually failed to put their hand up and say "yes, some were faully"

As for modfications of the D4D engine to s solid flywheel, it can be done, Very easily. with a good mechanic,

I know 8+ cars that have had the flywheel and clutch kit replaced.

an additional two have had the cars converted from a Dual Mass flywheel desgin to the solid flywheel, and have been running extremly well.

[Parts-King]

Just going to say one thing..

If Toyota Dual Mass flywheels are so good "genuine" parts,

then why is it that

1) So many flywheels have failed

I never said they were so good, I'm saying converting to a solid flywheel maybe OK for those capable of doing so, and who are prepared to make some sacrifices, but to give this information as though it was a genuine alternative and in someway "approved" is clearly wrong. You have no idea of the longterm effects of fitting a solid flywheel. Considering the problems with DMF, don't you think Toyota would have given it as a option to replace if it was all so straight forward?

2) Toyota has continually failed to put their hand up and say "yes, some were faully"

Sorry but that is not a true statement. They have said the first batches of DMF were faulty, the part number was superceeded to reflect the new type. There was also an issue with the correct bolt torque and tightening process which was also changed.

As for modfications of the D4D engine to s solid flywheel, it can be done, Very easily. with a good mechanic,

I know 8+ cars that have had the flywheel and clutch kit replaced.

an additional two have had the cars converted from a Dual Mass flywheel desgin to the solid flywheel, and have been running extremly well.

I don't doubt it, and I might be tempted to do it myself considering the costs in replacing a DMF. As above, it is NOT an authorised method of repair and should not be given the appearence of being so. Owners who have little or no mechanical knowledge, could be given the impression that they are having to replace the DMF on a clearly "for profit" basis and that is just not true. Toyota and other manufacturers have put DMF's into cars for a very good reason, read Anchormans thread for a technical overview of it. Toyota are not the only manufacturers with DMF problems, you only have to call a motor factor and ask how many they sell. They are not the same as a solid flywheel, and there will always be an element of wear and tear, it's just that SOME, (not all) have failed too early causing customers major expense.

Kingo

[cmia]

, but to give this information as though it was a genuine alternative and in someway "approved" is clearly wrong. You have no idea of the longterm effects of fitting a solid flywheel. Considering the problems with DMF, don't you think Toyota would have given it as a option to replace if it was all so straight forward?

I never said they were so good,

re first post, you really made it sound like Geniune parts are the only way to go down.

I'm saying converting to a solid flywheel maybe OK for those capable of doing so, and who are prepared to make some sacrifices

The only sacrifice with the Dual Mass flywheel conversion is

1st gear is slow to pickup.

Apart from that the two cars I am reffering to have covered some serious mileage without any Problems to the transmittion, or the engine.

2) Toyota has continually failed to put their hand up and say "yes, some were faully"

Sorry but that is not a true statement. They have said the first batches of DMF were faulty

Oh yes the infmous document at your local Toyota Stealer, which states what the fault is, and what has to be done to fix it.

Ive read it acouple of times.

What Toyota failed to do was to put the hand up, and repair it, rather then get the avrage joe blogs to spend a fortune fixing a problem which Toyota know to be an issue.

The part number was superceeded to reflect the new type. There was also an issue with the correct bolt torque and tightening process which was also changed.

I am aware of the upgraded parts information.

I don't doubt it, and I might be tempted to do it myself considering the costs in replacing a DMF. As above, it is NOT an authorised method of repair and should not be given the appearence of being so

I never said replacing the DMF for a solid flywheel was an authorised method. All I said, it has been tried and tested by oweners of the d4d engine.

Owners who have little or no mechanical knowledge, could be given the impression that they are having to replace the DMF on a clearly "for profit" basis and that is just not true.

Clearly I can see Toyota making alot of money from aftersales parts and non warranty support for these cars. Who would really expect a major component of these cars to fall off, or fail.

At 850£ a pop, Profits galore..

Look it at a buyers point of view,

We go an buy a car and spend good money on it.

We expect the car to run reliably for the unforseen future, (apart from the normal service)

What we dont expect is to foot a bill of nearly 1k for a faulty part, which Toyota knows about, and does NOT want to replace after the "3 years 60k miles" of so called "warranty".

I see profit in that.

Toyota and other manufacturers have put DMF's into cars for a very good reason, read Anchormans thread for a technical overview of it

I am resonably competent when it comes to the mechanics of a car.

Toyota are not the only manufacturers with DMF problems

I know.

[cmia]

You only have to call a motor factor and ask how many they sell.

Lots I guess, More money in the pot.

They are not the same as a solid flywheel

Yep, I also know that

and there will always be an element of wear and tear

within reason.. Some what I dont class a flywheel faliure at 60k of miles wear and tear.

it's just that SOME, (not all) have failed too early causing customers major expense.

Kingo

Yes an Unfortunatly No gesture from Toyota to offer, part or any sort of good will to the customer.

[Parts-King]

Yes an Unfortunatly No gesture from Toyota to offer, part or any sort of good will to the customer

Well that is not the case, this is Toyota's position

With our commitment to customer satisfaction the warranty was extended for a period outside of the normal 3 year or 60,000 mile warranty. Because a production line fix was introduced from August 2002 claims would only be accepted on vehicles manufactured prior to this date. This extended period ran for 5 years or 100,000 miles (whichever comes first) and as such would therefore have expired in August 2007. I have to confirm that no extra time or mileage will be added to this warranty extension and all Toyota Centres are aware of the above information.

My recommendation would be that owners who experience a failure outside of this period should contact their Toyota Centre and if they feel it appropriate, contact would be made to our Customer Relations Department for their consideration.”

So, far from not giving any goodwill, the warranty was extended to 100K 5 years, HOWEVER, there are still customers experiencing DMF failures and I urge anyone with a fault to go to their local dealer, who can then take it up with Toyota

Kingo

[cmia]

, far from not giving any goodwill, the warranty was extended to 100K 5 years, HOWEVER, there are still customers experiencing DMF failures and I urge anyone with a fault to go to their local dealer, who can then take it up with Toyota

Both my local Stealers Denied any warranty claim would be possible, also said the warranty was strictly 3 years 60k.

When did this information change or get updated?

So.. does this mean.. that I can get my money back from Toyota,

2003 manufactured car flywheel faliure @ 89k or thereabouts.

flywheel replaced about 6 months ago by toyota.

[Parts-King]

Both my local Stealers Denied any warranty claim would be possible, also said the warranty was strictly 3 years 60k.

It is still 3 yr 60K on cars produced AFTER Aug 2002

When did this information change or get updated?

So.. does this mean.. that I can get my money back from Toyota,

2003 manufactured car flywheel faliure @ 89k or thereabouts.

flywheel replaced about 6 months ago by toyota.

The quotation was taken from Anchormans thread, who has worked tirelessy with Toyota to get a difintive answer. This information has not been updated recently, as far as I'm aware. If your car was manufactured after Aug 2002, then the information given by your dealer is correct, however Toyota are encouraging customers to contact them via a dealer for out of warranty consideration, if the car is younger

Kingo

[cmia]

Both my local Stealers Denied any warranty claim would be possible, also said the warranty was strictly 3 years 60k.

It is still 3 yr 60K on cars produced AFTER Aug 2002

When did this information change or get updated?

So.. does this mean.. that I can get my money back from Toyota,

2003 manufactured car flywheel faliure @ 89k or thereabouts.

flywheel replaced about 6 months ago by toyota.

The quotation was taken from Anchormans thread, who has worked tirelessy with Toyota to get a difintive answer. This information has not been updated recently, as far as I'm aware. If your car was manufactured after Aug 2002, then the information given by your dealer is correct, however Toyota are encouraging customers to contact them via a dealer for out of warranty consideration, if the car is younger

Kingo

Right to hunt futher into this matter!

Mines a 2003 but old shape d4d.

[Beagh1958]

Merry Christmas & A Happy New Year To All,

Just a quick note to all concerned with DMF units, good experience or bad experience. My initial posting in answer was just a point of view that I take (Please note in no way a carved in stone way for all interested) this point of view manifests itself in the replacement to a solid flywheel for ME ONLY. I in no way suggest this should be done by all, I just happen to be able to take this option for my benefit only. We all know Toyota are aware this unit at times can develop a problem, but I am quite sure overall failure rate is miniscule in relation to cars sold. I for one would not hesitate from buying D4D car with DMF unit again & again. As suggested before just an option that I have chosen, but if your car is within warranty the obvious choice is to get down to MR T & have original parts fitted. Please note my original posting was not meant to be taken as a definitive option or advice to other D4D drivers , my apoligies if that appearance was given statement was not meant to contain any ambiguity. It was merely meant as I my thoughts on the subject.

Regards to all.

[buzlby]

Hi All (especially Beagh1958)

I for one would like the option of choosing to replace with either the DMF or the single solid set-up.

Yes, read all the stuff about risk etc, but would still like to try it

Thing is what parts did you use Beagh 1958 ?

If it makes you feel happier pm me off list.

Thanks

Buzlby

[Beagh1958]

To buzlby,

No problem with open reply for all to read. Firstly do you require a new clutch assembly/flywheel because your car has a problem or would you like the option incase of possible future problem? I as you may or may not guess am a mechanic by trade, parts for my car have been sourced through a major UK wide motor factor ( and then shipped over) for trade sales only (with respect) not for general public. One of the major online auction sites (no names mentioned, not the brand name I purchased) sell these items which obviously can be purchased by the general public, I am quite sure you can guess site name. I in know way recommend purchasing these items, even if they work perfectly. PLEASE NOTE I am not trying to be evasive but as suggested by other Forum user my initial posting may have given the impression that I was giving clear advise. Please note if my previous postings are read carefully you will see i suggest nothing of the sort. I merely point out another option, but if option is taken it is buyer beware. With due respect this is the advantage of the INTERNET if you search you will find quality brands giving you the option of taking the other route. Sorry if this is not enough information, it is all I can offer. Your other option is to approach local independent Toyota Mechanic or Garage & seek another point of view. Perhaps it is just the part of the world I live in. I & others in the trade around these parts take a different view. To conclude customers I deal with require a cheaper option to TOYOTA price & rest assured we are not inundated with failed DMFs, this is just an option that some customers take at their choice. Sorry if this is not a definitive answer in regards to DMFs.

[Parts-King]

Mind you don't wobble off that fence you're perched on Beagh ;) :D:

Kingo

[Beagh1958]

To Parts-king & buzlby,

No fences around here just sturdy limestone walls. With one exception its a sturdy fence made of solid steel & I think I will keep my butt firmly clenched to it. Could be a little wobble if a DMF fence!! I just prefer to keep my money in my pocket rather than MR.Ts pocket. Keep searching buzlby, you will find what your looking for. Regards to both, Beagh1958

PS. Still quite new to Forum, what are the rules on mentioning other companies or is this considered advertising & a complete NO NO.