DPF problems, is there a solution?

[riverratjimmy]

Hi. 

We have an Urban Cruiser, and in a lot of ways its the perfect runaround car! Small, spacious, AWD, frugal, modern, safe, reliable, 5 doors, comfy, good ground clearance (we live in the countryside), lots of ticks! 

DPF- Argh! Had it cleaned 3 months ago by a DPF specialist at a cost of £300, drove fine until yesterday when warning lights came back on and we're in limp mode again. 

That is terrible news. We do use the car on short trips - school runs (20 mins of rural driving) and the like.

Have we simply got the wrong car? Should we move it on and get something that doesn't have a DPF? It only costs £180 to insure it for the year, I can't condone owning a car that will need £300 spent on exhaust cleaning every 3 months...

Any advice gratefully received. 

 

 

 

[Catlover]

Do they do a petrol version - no DPF.  

[AJones]

How long did it run without problems before the DPF clean?

Question is whether the DPF blocking up is the cause of your problem, or the effect?

If it was the cause, and the company you took it too cleaned it and removed most or all of the fouling and ash, then it should have continued to run for a lot longer than 3 months. Did the company give you any feedback on what they found, or on the condition after the cleaning?

Assuming it was restored to reasonable condition  the fact it has gone again so soon points to it being the effect, is there something which is either preventing the DPF from being regenerated, or carrying over into the DPF causing the blockage, like poor combustion or oil leakage. What does the manual say about regeneration, do you know when it is occuring, has it been regenerating as normal?

[Cyker]

TBH I think you got the wrong car - Diesel vehicles *hate* short runs, esp. ones with DPFs.

My dad had a ford focus tdci and mostly used it for short journeys - In winter he once got 135 miles out of a tank! Once I took it out and when I floored it to get up to speed on an onramp the tailgater behind me must have shat himself from the amount of soot that exploded out the tail pipe!

I managed to get just over 500 miles out of that tank of fuel before I gave it back!  

I believe the Urbancruiser does have petrol versions, but I think they might be a bit rare as it was around the period where the government was telling everyone to buy diesel, and the UC didn't sell too well here so there aren't that many of them floating around. The petrol version will feel really gutless compared to the D4D as well, but would be a much better option for short runs. The only concern I have is apparently the petrol UC used the 1NR-FE engine, which is known for having garbage piston rings and a tendency to consume lots of engine oil.

If you have a very big windfall, the new Yaris Cross is probably the spiritual successor to the UC.

Or just drive your UC more - Take it on long blasts on motorways, A-roads and country lanes! Go explore the roads! It's more fun than Forza   If it's anywhere near as frugal as my old Mk1 Yaris D4D you should get 500-600 miles out of a tank easy!

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

The petrol 1.33 was front wheel drive and the 1.4 diesel all wheel drive.

[riverratjimmy]

Thanks for the replies. The car went in today and it was the EGR valve stuck open this time - similar symptoms to the DPF (ie limp mode and same warning light combination) but thankfully it wasn't the DPF. The EGR has been cleaned up and is opening and closing and the garage are forcing it to regenerate this afternoon. I'm picking it up in an hour so hopefully that should now be OK. We shall see how we get on. 

 

[Cyker]

Oh that's good news - EGR isn't a common problem on the 1.4 D4D; It gets filled with all sorts of crap and gets a bit sticky but usually stays working enough that the system is happy.

One related common issue is there is a tiny channel that goes from the EGR to the turbo throttlebody (It's connected to the big fat intercooler pipe) that gets blocked up with soot to the point where you wouldn't know the little port is there when looking inside the throttlebody, and it causes the idle to keep dropping to near-stall then surging.

Have had to have that cleaned on both the D4Ds I've owned, but thanks to the magical power of Carb Cleaner, A Metal Bowl and A Sacrificial Toothbrush it's really easy to clean it out. (Trying to clean it without soaking it in carb cleaner first is almost impossible! It's amazing how easily that stuff shifts baked in soot!)

Yours is the later 1.4 D4D tho' so they might have fixed that problem in yours...!

 

If I may make a suggestion - If the majority of your journeys is going to be short ones, I'd highly recommend switching to Shell V-Power diesel - It's considerably more expensive, but if you drive so little you'll hardly notice the extra cost, and it'll be a lot better for your engine as it burns a lot cleaner, which will reduce the exhaust deposits, and has a lot of cleaning additives which will help stop crud building up on the injectors and fuel system, which diesels are prone to if they don't get hot.

 

[riverratjimmy]

On 9/21/2021 at 10:11 PM, Cyker said:

 

Quote

If I may make a suggestion - If the majority of your journeys is going to be short ones, I'd highly recommend switching to Shell V-Power diesel - It's considerably more expensive, but if you drive so little you'll hardly notice the extra cost, and it'll be a lot better for your engine as it burns a lot cleaner, which will reduce the exhaust deposits, and has a lot of cleaning additives which will help stop crud building up on the injectors and fuel system, which diesels are prone to if they don't get hot.

Thanks for the advice, yes - I think we will use the pricier diesel for this one. Now that it has had the EGR cleaned it is driving really nicely, so that's great. Interesting to hear that about the little channel that blocks up - ours did used to stall like that when we first got it (particularly in reverse). 

[Stivino]

On the other hand, my car is hardly ever out of town and I use the cheapest supermarket fuel that I can get my hands on, no problems this end.

[Cyker]

I'm guessing yours is pre-DPF then. That's the single worst thing to happen to diesel reliability. What sort of miles are you getting out of a tank out of curiosity?

 

[Heidfirst]

14 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I'm guessing yours is pre-DPF then. That's the single worst thing to happen to diesel reliability. What sort of miles are you getting out of a tank out of curiosity?

 

if it is, as per his profile, a T180 then it has a D-CAT - a Toyota-specific type of DPF.

[Stivino]

23 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I'm guessing yours is pre-DPF then. That's the single worst thing to happen to diesel reliability. What sort of miles are you getting out of a tank out of curiosity?

 

Heidfirst is right, it’s a T180 with D.P.F.  From a tank of fuel I can’t remember exactly and I’m not home just now, so I can’t check.  But, I have a record of every drop of fuel I’ve put in my cars going back maybe 15 years, and the M.P.G. too. 

[Cyker]

How on earth are you preventing the cat from clogging up? Or is the car running literally all day rather than the short journeys I was imagining from what you said about staying in town?

 

[Stivino]

Car running all day? 
I use it like anybody else, I go to the shops, up to see my mate, my daughter etc.

Now and again it will get to stretch its legs on the motorway, that’s when it comes into its own.

 I don’t potter about, my driving style is quite “spirited”.

if it smoke starts to billow out (that will usually happen as I accelerate hard in 2nd or 3rd) I hold it in the gear at about 2,500 revs until it clears. That will take 10 to 15 seconds.  It never does that on the motorway. And, it doesn’t need to be up to temp for it to do it, I’ve seen it do it 5 minutes after a cold start in the morning.

About once a year, I’ll remove the EGR valve and clean it.  That should be part of Toyota’s service schedule, but if it was it might be seen as an admission that Toyota have dropped a clanger.

I’ve read all the literature and forums regarding the DPF/EGR valve issue on The Toyotas and Lexus models (which there are far more of) with this set up and I’ve come to the conclusion that nobody, (except maybe Toyota, and they are saying nothing) knows definitively what the remedy is.

All the comments like, “you have to give it a good run on the motorway for it to get hot enough to regenerate” rubbish, cars run hotter in town and mine never does it on the motorway.

“You have to use premium fuel” rubbish, I only use cheap supermarket fuel.

None of the “cures” that I’ve read on any forums has been the miracle cure that DPF engined Toyota owners are looking for.

This is my 2nd Avensis with this engine, the 1st one did exactly the same thing.

Now, if it smokes, I drive through it, I’ve learned to live with it, I don’t let it bother me.

Sorry if it was a bit long.

[NGRhodes]

1 hour ago, Stivino said:

Car running all day? 
I use it like anybody else, I go to the shops, up to see my mate, my daughter etc.

Now and again it will get to stretch its legs on the motorway, that’s when it comes into its own.

 I don’t potter about, my driving style is quite “spirited”.

if it smoke starts to billow out (that will usually happen as I accelerate hard in 2nd or 3rd) I hold it in the gear at about 2,500 revs until it clears. That will take 10 to 15 seconds.  It never does that on the motorway. And, it doesn’t need to be up to temp for it to do it, I’ve seen it do it 5 minutes after a cold start in the morning.

About once a year, I’ll remove the EGR valve and clean it.  That should be part of Toyota’s service schedule, but if it was it might be seen as an admission that Toyota have dropped a clanger.

I’ve read all the literature and forums regarding the DPF/EGR valve issue on The Toyotas and Lexus models (which there are far more of) with this set up and I’ve come to the conclusion that nobody, (except maybe Toyota, and they are saying nothing) knows definitively what the remedy is.

All the comments like, “you have to give it a good run on the motorway for it to get hot enough to regenerate” rubbish, cars run hotter in town and mine never does it on the motorway.

“You have to use premium fuel” rubbish, I only use cheap supermarket fuel.

None of the “cures” that I’ve read on any forums has been the miracle cure that DPF engined Toyota owners are looking for.

This is my 2nd Avensis with this engine, the 1st one did exactly the same thing.

Now, if it smokes, I drive through it, I’ve learned to live with it, I don’t let it bother me.

Sorry if it was a bit long.

EGR and DPF issues affect many manufacturers, my Dads Kia had a DPF replaced near the end of its warranty, there is no magic cure, some things work better for some people, others never get issues.

In terms of engine temperatures, don't forget about exhaust gas temperatures - the faster you go, the more fuel you need, heat energy is a by product the combustions and most of it is carried by the exhaust gas. Cooling systems do work better with more air flow, which is what I think you are referring to, but exhaust gases flow out so fast, only a little heat is transferred to the block, which the liquid cooling systems take away.

Your mention of smoking seems odd, I have had pre-dpf dervs for years and they only give out the occasional puff of smoke (non consumed much oil), maybe its because I only use premium fuels ? - I've never had to clean an EGR out, but I do agree inspection should be part of a service schedule, I do check mine every few years !

Premium fuels do have more/better cleaners, speak to any fuel delivery driver, they will tell you the base fuel is the same, but they pour extra additives in for the named brands, that supermarkets lack. In particular Shell has nitrogen based cleaners in their V-Power and as nitrogen is not combustible, they will survive the combustion chamber and help keep turbo/egrs clean.