Don't Mean To Offend...

[Tawse57]

...isn't the Prius a very expensive car for what it is?

I mean, the fuel economy figures don't appear any better than a diesel Avensis but you can get a 12-16 month Avensis for about 12K these days?

What do they forecast the 3 year old price of an Prius will be?

[nnw49]

The only diesels I can see in the Avensis range are manual transmission.

Thus you are comparing apples and oranges.

When you compare the Prius against other automatics it comes out very favourably for fuel economy.

There are very few diesel automatics that I know of - and you can't use the more efficient CVT auto with them because of the torque characteristics of a diesel engine....

Neil.

[Fidgits]

Heres the thing though - compare the Co2 output of the Prius to any Diesel ;)

[DGBO4]

ref Tawse57. had new prius t4 jan 04 after 10 mth of alarm troubles

then new unit fitted in-side of inturnal light unit.

No more alarm trouble But now have door locking/unlocking trouble when

raining, i wont wate anouther 10 mth for a fix.ask dealer for a prise to have

car back £12.000 take it or leav it. I sold it for £13.995 the next day.

I now have skoda octavia auto 1,9tdi very nice car. yes i did say

£12.000 after 14 mth

DGB04 SOMERSET

[Tawse57]

skoda octavia auto 1,9tdi very nice car

How much did you pay for this? Is it the ambience or the elegance? It is supposed to be a very good car? How noisey is the diesel? I ask as it is one on my list.

[Braindead]

The only diesels I can see in the Avensis range are manual transmission.

Thus you are comparing apples and oranges.

When you compare the Prius against other automatics it comes out very favourably for fuel economy.

There are very few diesel automatics that I know of - and you can't use the more efficient CVT auto with them because of the torque characteristics of a diesel engine....

Neil.

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The Prius has an 'automatic box' like no other! :D It's not CVT (like the cone and band CVT) and it's not the old hydraulic type either. If anyone is interested there's a good (if complicated) artice at

http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyot...ransmission.htm

[scionic]

Heres the thing though - compare the Co2 output of the Prius to any Diesel ;)

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The CO2 output isn't much lower than a small diesel I bet.

I think you're thinking of NOx. That's what's higher in diesels and much lower in a hybrid.

That said, it's been proven that you'd have to drive the hell out of a Prius and own it for like 10 years in order to get a return on your investment over a less expensive small car like the Echo even that gets only 35-40 mpg.

The Prius is all about super low emissions and cool technology, not saving money. The high MPG is a fringe benefit of the technology.

It's a very cool car though. I thought of one myself but I couldn't bear a car without a manual transmission. I just like having that control and I think it's a lot more fun. Honda's the only company I know of selling hybrids with manual transmission, but their IMA system isn't nearly as cool as Toyota's Synergy Drive!

Despite all that, I'd rather have a turbodiesel with a 5/6 speed over any hybrid. I don't care that it's a bit dirtier. It's proven technology, I love the diesel clatter and rugged simplicity of the engines. I'd drive nothing but diesels if we just had some more diesel car options in the United States!

[scionic]

The only diesels I can see in the Avensis range are manual transmission.

Thus you are comparing apples and oranges.

When you compare the Prius against other automatics it comes out very favourably for fuel economy.

There are very few diesel automatics that I know of - and you can't use the more efficient CVT auto with them because of the torque characteristics of a diesel engine....

Neil.

←

I beleive Audi fits CVT's with diesels and I know that VW is offering a CVT with the TDI's in the new Mk5 Jetta.

Hybrids actually have massive low end torque as well due to the electric motors. Check the figures on the prius, It's got at much torque right off the line as the most powerful diesel V6's!

The Avensis diesel mentioned earlier is MUCH more cost-effective than a Prius, but as I said you don't buy a Prius to save money, the Prius is all about super clean exhaust and cool technology and supporting development of the technology.

[Fidgits]

Heres the thing though - compare the Co2 output of the Prius to any Diesel ;)

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The CO2 output isn't much lower than a small diesel I bet.

I think you're thinking of NOx. That's what's higher in diesels and much lower in a hybrid.

That said, it's been proven that you'd have to drive the hell out of a Prius and own it for like 10 years in order to get a return on your investment over a less expensive small car like the Echo even that gets only 35-40 mpg.

The Prius is all about super low emissions and cool technology, not saving money. The high MPG is a fringe benefit of the technology.

It's a very cool car though. I thought of one myself but I couldn't bear a car without a manual transmission. I just like having that control and I think it's a lot more fun. Honda's the only company I know of selling hybrids with manual transmission, but their IMA system isn't nearly as cool as Toyota's Synergy Drive!

Despite all that, I'd rather have a turbodiesel with a 5/6 speed over any hybrid. I don't care that it's a bit dirtier. It's proven technology, I love the diesel clatter and rugged simplicity of the engines. I'd drive nothing but diesels if we just had some more diesel car options in the United States!

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In that fell swoop you just proved you know nothing about cars...

YES THE PRIUS HAS A MUCH LOWER CO2 RATING THAN A DIESEL - in fact, modern petrol cars have a lower CO2 rating than diesels - hence why there are none in California (Diesels cannot meet the strict emissions laws).

[scionic]

In that fell swoop you just proved you know nothing about cars...

YES THE PRIUS HAS A MUCH LOWER CO2 RATING THAN A DIESEL - in fact, modern petrol cars have a lower CO2 rating than diesels - hence why there are none in California (Diesels cannot meet the strict emissions laws).

←

The CO2 output in diesels is roughtly the same as gasoline engines. It's NOx that's much higher.

I think before attacking my car knowledge, you may want to do some research.

I'll leave you to search google and read your apology later, OK?

[Fidgits]

Prius CO2 mass emissions : 104

Avensis D4D Diesel CO2 : 155

But granted, it seems the Petrol Avensis engines are actually quite bad on the CO2 emissions....

But I was right ;)

[SilverT4]

Check the road tax - which is based on CO2 emissions

£65 for the Prius !

[Fidgits]

and the fact remains, you can't buy a diesel car in California because the emissions are far too high (but you can buy a 7.0 V8 Corvette)

[scionic]

Prius CO2 mass emissions : 104

Avensis D4D Diesel CO2 : 155

But granted, it seems the Petrol Avensis engines are actually quite bad on the CO2 emissions....

But I was right ;)

←

You are right that the Prius has lower CO2 emissions than a diesel.

That's because the Prius turns the petrol engine OFF completely at times and it's an atkinson cycle engine designed for ULEV certification. Pretty easy not to put out CO2 when the motors not running.

However your comment about my car knowledge was WAY out of line. Even the diesel Avensis and the Prius aren't that far apart. Try comparing the Avensis to a car with a conventional gas engine of the same displacement and see what you come up with.

This all started because I innocently thought you were thinking of NOx emissions because the difference between gas and diesel on that is much greater and THAT is why diesel cars aren't allowed in California. The CARB (California Air Resources Board) banned them because NOx is a precursor to ground level ozone which contributes to the smog problem in Los Angeles. It has not a nothing to do with CO2.

In fact the entire environmental argument against diesels has nothing to do with CO2, it's NOx that is the issue. That is why I thought you meant NOx and I was trying to be helpful, but instead you decided to be an a$$.

I guess it was just a misunderstanding. Hopefully we understand each other now?

[Fidgits]

whatever..... you really need to chill....

And my point - for city driving the Prius has 0 emissions - no combustion engine can beat that...

and the comment was a generalisation, not an insult (as most of your posts are) and your acting like I killed your dog and slept with your sister...

its a car forum, there is no need to get so wound up ;)

[scionic]

and the fact remains, you can't buy a diesel car in California because the emissions are far too high (but you can buy a 7.0 V8 Corvette)

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Good point. The U.S. emissions laws are a bit wacky like that. They don't take fuel economy into consideration.

The Corvette has low NOx output so CARB has no problem with it and it gets relatively good fuel economy for what it is, so CO2 isn't bad either. But you can buy a Hummer H2 that gets 11 mpg and has huge CO2 output in California too.

Way more CO2 than a small diesel car...

Speaking of small diesel cars, if you remember, what I said was The CO2 output isn't much lower than a small diesel I bet.

That's what you were arguing with, for the record. I suppose it depends on your definition of "much" but I'd say if they Prius is that close to a midsize diesel like the Avensis, then it's probably not "much " lower than a small diesel like a Yaris 1.4 or similar. But if you'd like to go on thinking you're right, go ahead. Anyone who reads this thread thorughly will see the truth.

[scionic]

whatever..... you really need to chill....

And my point - for city driving the Prius has 0 emissions - no combustion engine can beat that...

and the comment was a generalisation, not an insult (as most of your posts are) and your acting like I killed your dog and slept with your sister...

its a car forum, there is no need to get so wound up ;)

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If you've read most of my posts then you know better than to question my car knowledge.

Enough said.

[Fidgits]

well, I've read enough of your posts to know some things....

and just FYI, I use CO2 as shorthand for Carbon Emissions, now - back to the subject at hand...

[scionic]

well, I've read enough of your posts to know some things....

and just FYI, I use CO2 as shorthand for Carbon Emissions, now - back to the subject at hand...

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CO2 is Carbon Dioxide.

NOx is Nitrogen Oxides.

Two distinctly different things.

By "Carbon Emissions" I'm assuming you mean CO2 and Carbon Monoxide.

Diesels actually produce less carbon monoxide than gasoline engines. Carbon monoxide is what kills you if you run your car inside a garage. It deprives the blood of oxygen.

Diesels produce about the same CO2 as gas engines, more NOx and less carbon monoxide. They produce more NOx in part because they run very lean, but there are a number of technologies just entering the marketplace that substatially reduce diesel NOx emissions. The high tech catalysts are beginning to show up on Citroen/Peugeot diesels now and Volkswagen/Audi and Toyota will begin employing them soon as well.