Brake fluid replacement query

[RonYarisX]

This is probably more a question for Yaris owners as the Cross is too new, but wonder if anyone has any similar experience of this / knows the reason?

Was checking brake fluid replacement prices for my ICE car when I came across this sub note on Kwik-Fit's website:

Please note: we are currently unable to carry out brake fluid changes on hybrid/electric vehicles.

Why should a brake fluid change on your Hybrid be any different to that on an ICE powered car?

 

[Big_D]

I’m open to correction here, but it may have something to do with the regenerative braking. 

[Cyker]

Don't Kwik Fit still have a general moratorium on working on hybrids?

I remember they wrecked a few Priuses back in the day because they didn't know how to turn them off properly and there were more than a few cases where the engine fired up mid-oil change, with predictably disastrous results!

As I recall they refused to work on any hybrids after that, and AFAIK that's still the case for the most part...? (I think they have some specialist centres for working on hybrid and EVs, but the vast majority of branches don't)

 

[Saxmaniac]

Don't go to Kwik fit with anything, not even a wheelbarrow 

[paul9]

Meh, they are usually reasonable for re-gassing my aircon, although I haven't noticed them doing a discount on the service for quite a while. I did really prefer to get it done while they were cheaper. That said, they may not be the best to work on Hybrid/EV aircon systems, with what I have read about the new oils used in some of those systems. 🤔

[TonyHSD]

Hybrid and electric cars has electric brake booster pumps and many has electric parking brakes. Each manufacturers has different brake fluid change procedures and some require a specialist equipment, a box service kit similar to ac regas machines. Toyota hybrids can be done old school way, although you will need a help of a friend to push and hold the brake pedal.
Front brakes are usually done with negative terminal disconnected, while the rear with car in ready mode or valet mode etc. On new cars after year 3 or 4 you can think about doing it. 

[RonYarisX]

9 hours ago, Saxmaniac said:

Don't go to Kwik fit with anything, not even a wheelbarrow 

I'd agree with that if tasking them to stick to manufacturer servicing schedule, but when it comes to stuff like brake fluid changes - it's hard to mess up as most cars use the exact same method.  ( or at least I thought they did - their exclusion might suggest they're not all the same ).

Long story short - some years ago whilst undertaking warranty work, unknown to me, the supplying dealership had to drain / replace the brake fluid. The only indication I had they'd dabbled with the brakes was about 20min after I collected the car, I tried to come to a complete stop but the brake pedal went to the floor without the car stopping. They'd changed the fluid alright, just they forgot to bleed it properly

Bleeding brakes is a relatively simple task however I have 1st hand experience that having a £100 an hour qualified mechanic at the brand dealership do the job is definitely no guarantee of success.   

[Parts-King]

18 hours ago, RonYarisX said:

This is probably more a question for Yaris owners as the Cross is too new, but wonder if anyone has any similar experience of this / knows the reason?

Was checking brake fluid replacement prices for my ICE car when I came across this sub note on Kwik-Fit's website:

Please note: we are currently unable to carry out brake fluid changes on hybrid/electric vehicles.

Why should a brake fluid change on your Hybrid be any different to that on an ICE powered car?

 

Because it is done via being hooked up to a laptop, A KwikFit fitter wouldn't know how to turn it on 🙄🙄

In all seriousness, there is very little they will do if it has "Hybrid" in the title, I had a customer tell me they would not change a wiper for her as it was a "Hybrid" 

[jthspace]

From the Web: As a rule, Toyota recommends that you change the brake fluid every two years or 20,000 miles, although several factors can affect the interval. No two drivers are the same, and some are harder on their brakes than others.

[Starensis]

I asked a dealer to check my brake fluid for boiling point to confirm if it needed changing, whilst car was in for a service.

When picking car up, I asked if they’d done it. “No sir, we don’t have that sort of equipment, plus it’s OK for 5 years”.

[Derek.w]

1 hour ago, Starensis said:

I asked a dealer to check my brake fluid for boiling point to confirm if it needed changing, whilst car was in for a service.

When picking car up, I asked if they’d done it. “No sir, we don’t have that sort of equipment, plus it’s OK for 5 years”.

For about 5£ you can buy your own brake fluid tester that give you peace of mind for just removing the brake fluid cap and testing it before adding new fluid.

You may need to remove some plastic trim cection above fluid tank for easer access.

Dont understand why condition of brake fluid is not checked as part of any service.

[anchorman]

2 hours ago, Derek.w said:

For about 5£ you can buy your own brake fluid tester that give you peace of mind for just removing the brake fluid cap and testing it before adding new fluid.

You may need to remove some plastic trim cection above fluid tank for easer access.

Dont understand why condition of brake fluid is not checked as part of any service.

They mitigate any testing by changing it at 2 years so it’s done in good time.  

[Saxmaniac]

I've had badly fitted exhaust, car jacked up in the wrong place causing damage, overtightened wheel nuts, overtightened oil filter housing, loose sump plug etc etc from these so called pros, this isn't just Kwik fit, it's dealer as well. My friends have had exactly the same. I won't even let these places jack the car up now. If I need tyres I'll take the wheels to the shop. Regas I'd only go to an Aircon specialist,ask a lot of questions and hope they're above the usual standard 

[Guest]

17 hours ago, jthspace said:

No two drivers are the same, and some are harder on their brakes than others.

That's not the main reason for changing it. (Don might eleborate?) Conventional brake fluid is hygroscopic (likes moisture) and if there's water, in the fluid, at the wheels it will boil - poor braking because steam will compress.

However, that could be accelerated by harder braking, as you write. Is that a contradiction, accelerated and braking?

[jthspace]

😁

I was quoting Toyota verbatim from their website. I’ve always changed my 2018 Mazda Mk4 brake fluid every 2 years per their service recommendation but my 1993 Mazda Eunos gets changed every 3 years. It only does 1500 miles dry roads per year.  Two things a car should be good at - Starting and Stopping 😆 so I probably play safe!

[RonYarisX]

It's obviously a different system, but anyone who has hydraulic brakes on their bike can see the exaggerated effect of moisture in the system. I have to bleed the brakes on my bike at least a couple of times a year.

Garages really should test the fluid first, but as a general rule, fluid is changed every 2years in the UK. I've never gone past 3yr without changing the fluid.

It's not just about brake performance - any water vapour in the brake fluid has the potential to prematurely cause wear within the braking system.

9 hours ago, jthspace said:

...but my 1993 Mazda Eunos gets changed every 3 years. It only does 1500 miles dry roads per year.

I hope your not implying the more your car is subjected to wet weather then the higher the water content will be in brake fluid?  It's a sealed system - rain doesn't affect it.

The water in question here is contained in the atmosphere. The air in the UK is quite wet - something to do with having the Atlantic ocean on one side and the North Sea on the other.  🤣

The only way brake fluid wouldn't attract water here in the UK is to vacuum pack the car each time we store it.

[jthspace]

No I'm not saying that, simply I feel that my 31 year old 114 bhp Eunos with 120,000 kms that only does minimal Miles per year (and laid up Nov- April) garaged and not a daily driver suffers less stress on oils / fluids than my 190 bhp fun-drive MX5. Saying that both cars get oil changes every year, gearbox and final drive every 3 years as well as normal service items. I change my tyres at 5 years regardless of legal thread left.  I don't skimp on servicing as both cars are "keepers", as is the Yaris I'm picking up Saturday-it will probably see out the balance of my driving life with the 10 year warranty and hopefully some odd years thereafter. I'll follow the servicing schedule and add to it as I feel necessary.

[bathtub tom]

Most modern hydraulic fluid reservoirs seem to have a 'membrane' on top of the fluid, that allows the level to 'adjust', without allowing excess air/moisture into the fluid (mine hasn't).

I tend to bleed some fluid out of the bleed nipple each year when I inspect, clean and lube the brakes.

[anchorman]

12 hours ago, olonas said:

That's not the main reason for changing it. (Don might eleborate?) Conventional brake fluid is hygroscopic (likes moisture) and if there's water, in the fluid, at the wheels it will boil - poor braking because steam will compress.

However, that could be accelerated by harder braking, as you write. Is that a contradiction, accelerated and braking?

To be honest, heat isn’t such a problem on modern cars.   In the days of twin or four piston calipers, the fluid was fed over the bridge and in very close proximity of the disc but these days, most calipers are of the none reaction type where the piston is only on the inboard side and the outer pad is applied by the equal and opposite force.  Furthermore, the piston is hollow so the nearest it gets to the disc is about 60mm.  To boil the fluid in that case, you’d be melting the gaiters of the guide pins so it’s very unlikely.  The main reason for changing the fluid is to protect the internal workings of the ABS pump and other components of the braking and VSC system from dirt, corrosion and lack of lubrication.  In the process of aging and moisture absorption (which is minuscule), the fluid goes off.  Anybody familiar with changing fluid on a regular basis will know it goes very dark with age and it’s not through heat or moisture as the fluid is static, what’s in the pipes doesn’t absorb moisture and doesn’t get hot and it still discolours with age.  Of course there are exceptions and this 2 year 20k thing caters for the worst conditions that might be in a humid or dirty environment or might be at the extreme of performance.   I change at 2 years with that very expensive ABS pump in mind but I wouldn’t go crazy if circumstances extended that to 3 years.  By the way, all Japanese built vehicles come with DOT3 in the system where Toyotas built in Europe have DOT4.  They are both interchangeable. The latter has a higher boiling point than DOT3 but let me assure you, to boil DOT3 you’d need to have a lot going on at the disc/pad interface.  Disc pads will perform up until about 1100C for short periods at which time the discs will be bright yellow.  It wouldn’t be impossible in a high speed police chase so yes change to DOT4 but the big advantage with 3 is that it has a better lubricity so internal components and seals fair better.  For those reasons, I favour DOT3.

[Saxmaniac]

Interesting point about dot 3, also I did read that it absorbs moisture more slowly than dot 4. I'm doing fluid on my Auris hybrid soon, Car Care Nut has DIY video using hand held vacuum pump method for brake flush. I'm not keen but going to do with non Techstream method as per Toyota manual, putting car into invalid mode. I don't know how different Yaris hybrid would be but I imagine it would be similar. (Do you really imagine the likes of Kwik Fit are going to research and carry out this procedure?)

[Cyker]

Plus in the hybrids the hydraulic brakes get much less use than in a normal car so they're probably stone cold most of the time!

[Guest]

10 hours ago, anchorman said:

By the way, all Japanese built vehicles come with DOT3 in the system where Toyotas built in Europe have DOT4.

Whether it's a generalisation, but I think my handbook recommends DOT3. Without checking, DOT3 is on the reservoir cap too (French built Yaris). Unless what they use in Europe, DOT3 to DOT4 during build, has changed over the past 9 years?

However, I have changed the brake fluid a couple of times and used DOT4. As you write, it is compatible with DOT3 and has a higher boiling point.

[Guest]

22 hours ago, jthspace said:

I was quoting Toyota verbatim from their website.

Toyota's advice about maintaining the starting Battery was a bit flakey and not strictly correct, during the house arrrest period, so I would take what is written there with a very large sack of salt.