Will The Hybrid Magic Wear Thin?

[daveXIII]

Hi all;

I have an interesting point of view - which I will try to put delicately as I appreciate this is a Prius owners forum.... ie most of you already have one! Here's my situation.....

My girlfriend and I have one car between the two of us. It's a Smart ForTwo, and currently serves our needs - just. We will probably need to move to two cars sometime this year, and really need something bigger. Yes, for the vast majority of trips the little 'plastic-fantastic' is fine, but everyone has to collect the Christmas tree, or go to the tip etc. Plus, we will probably get a dog, so a four-door plus boot is the order of the day. Finally, the ride in the Smart is truly awful, so a more comfortable car for longer journeys would be nice.

Having had a car that is supposedly 'green', it should really be no surprise that the Prius interests us. Although I struggle with the concept of a 'green' car, as no such thing exists. As a side note.... I'm not an eco-mentalist, and I don't feel the need to excuse or appologise for the inevitable impact that my life has on the planet.

I simply look at the options, and (try to) make the best decision that my budget can allow. If, by chance, I happen to save some money on running costs and attract less of a tax burden (no mean feat in the UK) then so much the better.

And this is where I struggle to see the real benefit of the Prius. The environment does not care in the slightest about how much CO2 is produced in driving from A to B - Mother Nature is only concerned about the big picture.... ie how much energy is required (or pollution produced) during a vehicles entire life cycle - "cradle to grave".

I simply can't see how assembling a car in Japan (from bits made all over the globe) and then shipping it halfway around the World to me in the UK can be such a clever idea. Most environmental articles that I've read seem to indicate that shipping produces some serious pollution (if not a massive amount of CO2) because the ships run on very low grade (ie dirty) fuel.

Surely this means that the Prius has a sizeable pollution 'debt' before it has even turned a wheel for me here in the UK? As a comparison, my Smart was built in France, which is just a 'stones throw away'.

Once I have my hands on the Prius, it will (I hope) be very fuel efficient. But then again, there are many diesels capable of similar numbers, so maybe it isn't quite so clever.

Finally, at the end of its useful life, the car has to be recycled (or God-forbid, scrapped into a landfill somewhere). Surely those hundreds of Battery cells (not to mention the two 'engines') mean that the Prius requires far more energy to recycle than a regular car.

Does this not mean that the Prius, yet again, has an even greater pollution 'debt' than a normal car after is has finished its useful life?

I'm not trying to be unfair about the Pruis, but I would really appreciate some links to genuine information. By genuine, I don't mean 'spin' from Toyota or Cameron Diaz.

Yes, hybrid technology may be the 'bridge' we need between current/normal cars and the future - whatever that may be. But are we not actually being a little naive talking about mpg when the real impact of motoring is so much more than the petrol consumed?

Finally, if indeed the Prius suffers when exposed to 'big-picture' thinking, then won't the incentives that make hybrids attractive simply disappear?

Anyone with any thoughts on an incredibly complex issue??

[Boro Sera]

a couple of thoughts spring to mind.

Fuel economy isn't why people buy the prius as far as I'm aware - it's for the emissions ( or to save a small fortune on Congestion Charges ).

If the country of origin/shipping/disposal/cradle to grave lark is that important then everyone would drive Mini Metros - Made in England using lowish quality materials, fair fuel economy for the time, self disposing due to excessive rust usually !

The gamble that Toyota took launching the prius and the success of the car and subsequent technologies is indeed an indicator for what the future of motoring may look like in some areas of the car market.

You've already decided that you need a bigger car as well as the Smart to accomodate future happenings ( getting a dog, going to the tip etc ). I could look at this statement the same way and conclude that if you recycled more stuff at home and didn't get a dog then you wouldn't need to run 2 cars - that's gotta be greener.

I'm not attacking you or your thread here by the way, it's just that it's a lot easier to find negatives about Hybrid cars and green issues in general when weighing up pros and cons.

We have a love affair with motoring in the UK, I'd assume you'd get a larger car anyway if you felt you needed one. Getting a low/zero emission car is surely better for the world than buying yourself a Cayenne. You can't worry too much about how much pollution/CO etc is produced by someone on the other side of the world - if you don't buy into their products they'll still do it as long as there's a market to them , if you use their product to reduce your own personal carbon footprint then that's something positive.

You are quite right when you say it's an incredibly complex issue - just realised how much I've typed.

[daveXIII]

Yes, I guess you're right, emissions are why the Prius appeals to me - but not just in the sense that I want to reduce mine.

Instead, the emissions directly influence the tax that I pay. Unfortunately for me, the UK government have a policy that contains no common sense what-so-ever. Quite why two cars producing 100g of CO2/km play a lot less road tax combined than one producing 200g completely baffles me.... but perhaps that's for another thread.

I'm convinced that many other cities will follow London with a Congestion/CO2 charge. Oxford council hate cars with a passion that I usually reserve for politicians, so they must be next. At least six other cities that I can think of have mentioned in the press that the are 'evaluating' the concept.

Consequently the tax burden, in the UK at least, will only increase for the motorist. Both LPG and Diesel have seen massive tax increases as they have become mainstream - the government no doubt eager to take a slice of the action.

My concern is that the hybrids will be viewed differently in a couple of years time if their true impact is known. On the basis that every product or service that I (and anyone else) buys has a direct affect on not just the planet as a whole, but on the people and countries that supply each piece of the puzzle, I can and I do worry about CO2 produced on the other side of the World. Our spending patterns influence these factors, and I chose not to ignore them.

You mention that with hybrids is it a lot easier to find negatives. Is this because they are, actually, not very green at all?

Perhaps the success of the Prius is a desire for many people to appear to be doing the right thing, without actually scratching the surface to see if it is the best solution.

On the surface of it, buying a Prius is better than the Cayenne. But if the Cayenne requires significantly less energy to build, deliver and recycle, then perhaps is it actually the 'greener' car, in-spite of its relative thirst. Even for non-hybrid cars, the pollution produced from driving A to B is actually quite modest compared to that produced during other "cradle to grave" processes.

What I'm trying to do is understand the total environmental impact of owning and running a Prius before I get my cheque-book out. Rather than blindly following every D list celeb who has a Prius on the drive-way to pretend that they are environmentally aware.

[Chris Dance]

Boro Sera has given you a good reply Dave and I agree with his comments. If you do not think the Prius is the car for you fine but I think it must be one of the "greenest cars" around today. I cannot give you a total enviromental impact for the Prius as I have not made a study of it to the degree that you are talking about. I feel sure that if I did make a detailed enviromental comparison to other cars the Prius would have a very good rating.

The prius is right for our family. My son has a science degree and he looked into the enviromental impact of the Prius and he bought one. It was on his research that we changed to a Prius. I hope you find the car with the exacting requirements you are looking for.

Good luck. Chris.

[Boro Sera]

I read somewhere that if every vehicle in Britain parked up for 24 hours, the reduction in emissions would be the equivalent of Chinas manufacturing industry stopping for 5 minutes.

Surely anything that doesn't rely solely on fossil fuel is a good thing in my opinion. I rarely use my car for more than work at the moment, and walk or cycle a lot more. ( OK, drive to the seaside today for a day out ). Another point is that with oil prices snowballing, plus the fact that there's only a finite amount of the stuff anyway, new solutions are going to have to be found and developed. Toyota saw this coming and gave us the Prius. Twenty years ago if you tried to run a car on anything other than standard fuel then you were viewed as a loon ! Now we have people running diesels on Chip Fat. Attitudes have certainly changed towards alternative fuels. Electricity isn't just reserved for Milkmen anymore ! The Prius may not be the entire solution to the problems facing the world, but I reckon it's a big step in the right direction, even if it's just to get the motoring public aware of where the future lies.

It's a shame that nobody has managed to get the Garrett Carburettor working properly - that'd be good !

[daveXIII]

We can't really begrudge China its own industrial revolution when every Western society has already gone through the same process. What we should do is export our Nuclear/Solar/Wind technology at no-charge so that the Chinese can scrap their plans to build hundreds of fossil fuel power stations. We (the West) need to support the developing World to achieve what we have done without the associated impact on the environment... again this sounds like it should be left for another thread.

In a nut-shell I was hoping that someone would have a link to a website or article which has looked at the Prius in component form, so the whole "cradle to grave" impact can be calculated. I have an engineering degree, so one on the reasons that the Prius interests me is purely from an engineering perspective. I think the hybrid concept may be the future, particularly diesel/electric rather than petrol/electric. Maybe 100mpg in a consumer ready product is really just round the corner.... here's hoping.

I'm just concerned that we are actually misinterpreting hybrids as being 'green'.

The whole issue of being 'environmentally aware' is full of pitfalls.

We keep being told to turn our televisions off every night, rather than hitting the standby button. This seems, on the surface at least, to be a no-brainer. But yet again, it isn't that simple. I leave my TV on standby out of mechanical sympathy. Electronic devices, on the whole, don't like being turned off and on. My TV is nearly seven years old, and touch wood, works perfectly. On the other hand, my Grandmother (who is no longer with us) used to unplug everything before going to bed. In her last twenty years, she had four TVs. Taking my oversimplified and highly unscientific numbers, over the same twenty year period, I only need 3 TVs. That one whole TV that doesn't need to be designed, assembled, shipped from the Far East, and then recycled.

Perhaps I am being 'green' by leaving my TV on standby? My point is that I don't really know, as no one can give me the information I need to make an informed decision. Most environmentalists I have met are so misinformed that they can't see the wood for the trees.

I like the idea of the Prius because it is a large-ish car with small car costs. All I'm trying to do is work out the big-picture.

[daveXIII]

Just googled the Garrett Carburettor. Completely forgot about it!

I'm off down the shed to work out the 'kinks' - how difficult can it be!

........ I maybe some time.

[Boro Sera]

We keep being told to turn our televisions off every night, rather than hitting the standby button. This seems, on the surface at least, to be a no-brainer. But yet again, it isn't that simple. I leave my TV on standby out of mechanical sympathy. Electronic devices, on the whole, don't like being turned off and on. My TV is nearly seven years old, and touch wood, works perfectly. On the other hand, my Grandmother (who is no longer with us) used to unplug everything before going to bed. In her last twenty years, she had four TVs. Taking my oversimplified and highly unscientific numbers, over the same twenty year period, I only need 3 TVs. That one whole TV that doesn't need to be designed, assembled, shipped from the Far East, and then recycled.

As a former TV repairman I turn everything off. if it doesn't start up again I fix it !!

Just googled the Garrett Carburettor. Completely forgot about it!

I'm off down the shed to work out the 'kinks' - how difficult can it be!

70 year old technology........should be a breeze

( let us know how you get on !!! )

[edwardio]

Hi Dave

Below are some links that might help you decided.

Is the prius green

How green is my Prius

Top 20 greenest cars (from business car)

[Flynn2]

Hi DaveXIII, it is great to see someone think for themselves and not jump on the environmental band wagon! I only look on the Prius forums from time to time and luckily it was the one time there was an interesting post about a very (un) interesting car. The Prius is the biggest automotive joke to be honest, and has embarressed a company who used to be responsible for such greats as the Celica and M.R.2, not to mention a bunch of souped up Corollas. The silly little Prius lost out in a fuel economy test against the medium sized B.M.W. 5 series diesel, and I wouldn't worry about global impact because cars only account for 15% globally which is more than justifable for all the benefits they give, hell even if it was a third of emissions it would be fair play. Here is the article about the fuel economy test against the 5 series:

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_...icle3552994.ece

The bottom line is, never ever choose a car because of the environMETALists because if you do it's like they have won. You can have a decent looking car and still get good fuel economy, it's not only the diesel 5 series that beats it. Priuses are dangerous for pedestrians as well.

[Chris Dance]

Hi Flynn2, I am wondering if you do own a car as you do not have a model shown. Have you ever owned a PRIUS or even had a test drive? I do not know of anybody who owns a Prius and does not rate it highly. I do not see many dissatisfied owners on this forum. Why is the Prius dangerous for pedestrians??? The driver has a rear view camera to see if the rear is clear when reversing. I do not think prius owners will agree your comments and we are not environMETALists. I am getting 55MPG and that is driving hard on motorways. I am pleased with that. I think the Prius is the best car I have owned. I have owned Volvos Vauxhalls Renaults and two other Toyotas and driven many other vehicles.

[Chris Ray]

Well said Chris!

I have b cost savings, I have been driving for my job for 27 years, and average about 30,000 miles a year.

Having driven Jeeps, BMW. Mercs, Volvo and VW's, I am very pleased with my Prius.

Owning my own small company, it makes perfect sense for the cost savings and tax breaks.

As for the "famous" Diesel BMW test, it beat the Prius by just under 2 litres of fuel over some 535 miles, and was a manual car, as against the Prius CVT. Also, the cost of diesel is higher than petrol, so I reckon the magnificent saving of some £2.20 was made, and the emmissions were higher!

When you take onto account the cost of the BMW and the longer term fuel costs, it would take one hell of a lot of miles to recoup the alleged difference!!

Maybe we should start lurking on BMW forums, or whatever car Flynn2 owns?

[Flynn2]

The Prius is a danger to pedestrians because you can't hear it's pethetic electric motor.

[Chris Ray]

That would be the pedestrians who are walking in the road then, or those that are not checking before they cross?

I was not aware that road safety was based solely on listening for cars?

As for the Pathetic electric motor, I understand it puts out more horsepower than a lot of small cars, and certainly have no problems with acceleration.

So what car is it you own then Flynn2?

[Flynn2]

Buddy it's not you guys I have a problem with it is the fact that Toyota have just gone all "green" and neglected their sports car roots.

[Chris Dance]

I get the message Flynn2. You are speed "merchant". High performance and lots of carbon emissions. Sorry you are not happy with Toyota for producing one of the most advanced cars around today.

Hi Chris pleased to hear that you are satisfied with your Prius just like all the other Prius owners I speak to.

Sorry Flynn but I have to disagree with your views, before condemning the Prius take a test drive sometime you maybe surprised!!!!!!!but somehow I doubt it unless you are more unbiased to advanced technology.

Is that your car in the photo? You never said what model car you own.

Chris.

[Mike Nelson]

I have had a Prius for a few years and not because its green but because its great to drive and economical without resprting to lunk killing diesel engines (yes its proved diesel fumes can cause lung problems and astmha and the filtered fumes are smaller and more dangerous).

Personally I have never wanted or neede to go into sports car roots as you mention - probably as both my partner and I are happy with the size of my ***** :D

As for the electric motor making it a hazard to pedestrians does that mean cyclists and other pedestrians are a hazard too. surely its aggressive ignorant driving that causes pedestrian problems not the quietness of the motor.

Personally as petrol will go and and Oil IS running out its a one way street to less fuel guzzlers and hybrid I see is a stopgap until we finally get vehicles not needing fossil fuels (and Yes climate change/global warming is the second biggest risk to us - the biggest is peoples apathy to it). But I guess we'll be using hybrid for many years to come. Even VAG & Mercedes are developing Hybrid Technology and if they're spending money on it you know its here to stay!

[daveXIII]

Thanks for the replies to my questions. I've spent quite a while surfing the web about the Prius, with limited success to actually finding the info I want.

However, I've two quite interesting observations to share.

1) Most people (especially the media) seem to be completely confused about the difference between emissions and pollution.

One Daily Mail article even mentions CO2 as being poisonous!! For the love of God, carbon dioxide is one of the essential building blocks of all life on Earth. We breathe it out. Plants "breathe" it in. Is it any wonder people are confused with these idiots writing for papers with a massive circulation.

Anyway, I digress. Diesel engines may well produce less emissions (CO2), but the list of other crap that they pump out into the environment is incredible. Yes, many cars are fitted with filters. But these are expensive to replace, which in turns means that most owners will do without them as cars get older. And with todays technology, even the best filters cannot match the 'unfiltered' output of a petrol engine.

Yes, diesel cars may well be part of the solution to human transport needs, particularly a diesel/elec hybrid. But not before the particulate filters are sorted.

I've never owned a diesel car, mainly as I've always though of them as the 'dirty' alternative. In my opinion, nothing has really changed.

2) If you accept that the petrol engine is actually the only real solution, then the petrol/elec hybrid is probably the next logical step.

I've mentioned my scepticism at the Prius being 'green', but perhaps this is to miss the point. I'm starting to see the 'Prus' as an environmental 'loss leader'. In other words, the short term environmental damage of developing the car, and then supplying relative small numbers from the other side of the planet, might actually be a cost worth bearing. We are a long way off from having viable fuel cell cars, and I can't help thinking that hybrid technology is the only sensible way of bridging the gap from where we are now.

I don't profess to have the answers that I was seeking at the start of this thread, but having looked deeper, I am still interested in the Prius. I still haven't decided on whether it is a 'green' car, but I do think that is it probably a very good one.

[T600]

That's a pretty good analysis there I think Dave. In its current form the Prius has both positives and negatives compared to other vehicles, but it's probably a phase the manufacturers need to go though to get to a better solution. I think it needs cheaper, lighter batteries to really be a success, and needs to have lower running costs - for example if it could be charged from the mains it would be far cheaper for those of us who only do a few miles per day. Presently it's only an economic solution if you're doing high mileages and because it's forte isn't really motorway work not everyone doing high mileages will think it's the solution either.

I don't think people should buy them just for their 'green' credentials. If you don't do enough miles to warrant it then you're buying a load of batteries which eventually will be disposed of without having made much of a contribution. But if you reckon it's going to save you a lot of money on fuel without going the diseasal route then of course it's worth considering.

My concern is how viable they are when they get a bit older and the batteries start to go; sound like they could be expensive to repair meaning that their useful life is much shorter than a conventional car.

Personally I don't do near enough miles to make it worthwhile. And if I did I think I'd be looking at LPG first. I noticed the other day that some of the Subarus are available with LPG from the factory and as a result you can get LPG without losing your 3 year warranty. I'd give that serious consideration, except that it doesn't currently cover anything that I'd want to buy from that manufacturer. Perhaps that'll change though, and that might be interesting in a year or so when Subaru and Toyota's collaboration develops further.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

T

[Boro Sera]

I think it needs cheaper, lighter batteries to really be a success, and needs to have lower running costs - for example if it could be charged from the mains it would be far cheaper for those of us who only do a few miles per day.

If the Prius hadn't taken off then there would be no need to invest R&D money into all of the issues that are mentioned in this thread. Look at the mobile phone industry. That alone has advanced beyond all comprehension from the bricks that were available 20 years ago. If there's a need for something then technology will advance. Even Battery technology has come on in leaps and bounds over the last decade - although the Nokia N95 sort of missed the boat !

The Prius today is at the leading edge of viable eco-motoring - in ten years it'll be much better still. New technologies have to be proven reliable before they are introduced into a consumer market.

One Daily Mail article even mentions CO2 as being poisonous!! For the love of God, carbon dioxide is one of the essential building blocks of all life on Earth. We breathe it out. Plants "breathe" it in. Is it any wonder people are confused with these idiots writing for papers with a massive circulation

Did it also say that Global warming was down to too many asylum seekers and that CO2 would have a negative effect on the value of your house? Glad to see some things never change !!!!

[T600]

I think it needs cheaper, lighter batteries to really be a success, and needs to have lower running costs - for example if it could be charged from the mains it would be far cheaper for those of us who only do a few miles per day.

If the Prius hadn't taken off then there would be no need to invest R&D money into all of the issues that are mentioned in this thread. Look at the mobile phone industry. That alone has advanced beyond all comprehension from the bricks that were available 20 years ago. If there's a need for something then technology will advance.

Yes, I agree completely.

But at the moment the car only meets the needs of a small percentage of drivers and unless it gets better it won't win over the majority. But with better, lighter batteries which they'll undoubtedly develop very soon, I can see electric and/or hybrid power being much more popular. There will soon be a few very potent electric sports cars that have much lower running costs than their petrol equivalents, and the Hybrid Lexus cars are sure to win over a lot more fans as they get better. They're just about on a par with Diesels for economy at the moment, whereas in a few years time they could take the lead, and as soon as that happens a lot more people will take them seriously.

Yes, even if the Prius isn't a clear winner at the moment, I suppose buying one gets the message over to the car makers that people do want this technology, and it is worth there while investing in it. But then Toyota clearly know that already.

[Flynn2]

I get the message Flynn2. You are speed "merchant". High performance and lots of carbon emissions. Sorry you are not happy with Toyota for producing one of the most advanced cars around today.

Hi Chris pleased to hear that you are satisfied with your Prius just like all the other Prius owners I speak to.

Sorry Flynn but I have to disagree with your views, before condemning the Prius take a test drive sometime you maybe surprised!!!!!!!but somehow I doubt it unless you are more unbiased to advanced technology.

Is that your car in the photo? You never said what model car you own.

Chris.

Christopher, cars are only accountable for 15% of global warming emissions. Before you ask where I got that from I read it in a recent trip to the London science museum. How about takling the other 85% before limiting one of the greatest inventions of the modern world? Even if they produced a third of global emissions then the benefits would far outweigh the the emissions. Who wants a Prius? It is the ultimate anti-car. It does not look good, it does not have any character. The only kind of person who would go for one is someone with no taste what so ever.

I have had a Prius for a few years and not because its green but because its great to drive and economical without resprting to lunk killing diesel engines (yes its proved diesel fumes can cause lung problems and astmha and the filtered fumes are smaller and more dangerous).

Personally I have never wanted or neede to go into sports car roots as you mention - probably as both my partner and I are happy with the size of my ***** :D

As for the electric motor making it a hazard to pedestrians does that mean cyclists and other pedestrians are a hazard too. surely its aggressive ignorant driving that causes pedestrian problems not the quietness of the motor.

Personally as petrol will go and and Oil IS running out its a one way street to less fuel guzzlers and hybrid I see is a stopgap until we finally get vehicles not needing fossil fuels (and Yes climate change/global warming is the second biggest risk to us - the biggest is peoples apathy to it). But I guess we'll be using hybrid for many years to come. Even VAG & Mercedes are developing Hybrid Technology and if they're spending money on it you know its here to stay!

Like the other guy you seem to know nothing at all of cars and just see them as a matter of convienience for your lazy @$$. Sports cars are cool in every way, the sound they make when you dump the throttle, the styling and the performance.

Actually most pedestrian problems are caused by idiots who don't look before crossing the road. I observe carefully before crossing and I have never had a problem. Even those people who don't look would react to an engine sound. Take that away and what do you get? Suicide pedestrians.

I really don't care about you and your partners choice so there is no need to go into that. As I say, boring things for boring people :) You obviously have something against cars with a decent engine I guess that is what you mean by "fuel guzzlers" go to America and you'll have a heart attack.

As I have said for the other guy, cars account for only 15% of gobal emissions, how about tackling the other 85% before messing with cars that give so many benefits for a small price?

You are trying to annoy me by saying "Even VAG & Mercedes are developing Hybrid Technology and if they're spending money on it you know its here to stay!" really immature.

[Red Yaris 54]

I get the message Flynn2. You are speed "merchant". High performance and lots of carbon emissions. Sorry you are not happy with Toyota for producing one of the most advanced cars around today.

Hi Chris pleased to hear that you are satisfied with your Prius just like all the other Prius owners I speak to.

Sorry Flynn but I have to disagree with your views, before condemning the Prius take a test drive sometime you maybe surprised!!!!!!!but somehow I doubt it unless you are more unbiased to advanced technology.

Is that your car in the photo? You never said what model car you own.

Chris.

Christopher, cars are only accountable for 15% of global warming emissions. Before you ask where I got that from I read it in a recent trip to the London science museum. How about takling the other 85% before limiting one of the greatest inventions of the modern world? Even if they produced a third of global emissions then the benefits would far outweigh the the emissions. Who wants a Prius? It is the ultimate anti-car. It does not look good, it does not have any character. The only kind of person who would go for one is someone with no taste what so ever.

I have had a Prius for a few years and not because its green but because its great to drive and economical without resprting to lunk killing diesel engines (yes its proved diesel fumes can cause lung problems and astmha and the filtered fumes are smaller and more dangerous).

Personally I have never wanted or neede to go into sports car roots as you mention - probably as both my partner and I are happy with the size of my ***** :D

As for the electric motor making it a hazard to pedestrians does that mean cyclists and other pedestrians are a hazard too. surely its aggressive ignorant driving that causes pedestrian problems not the quietness of the motor.

Personally as petrol will go and and Oil IS running out its a one way street to less fuel guzzlers and hybrid I see is a stopgap until we finally get vehicles not needing fossil fuels (and Yes climate change/global warming is the second biggest risk to us - the biggest is peoples apathy to it). But I guess we'll be using hybrid for many years to come. Even VAG & Mercedes are developing Hybrid Technology and if they're spending money on it you know its here to stay!

Like the other guy you seem to know nothing at all of cars and just see them as a matter of convienience for your lazy @$$. Sports cars are cool in every way, the sound they make when you dump the throttle, the styling and the performance.

Actually most pedestrian problems are caused by idiots who don't look before crossing the road. I observe carefully before crossing and I have never had a problem. Even those people who don't look would react to an engine sound. Take that away and what do you get? Suicide pedestrians.

I really don't care about you and your partners choice so there is no need to go into that. As I say, boring things for boring people :) You obviously have something against cars with a decent engine I guess that is what you mean by "fuel guzzlers" go to America and you'll have a heart attack.

As I have said for the other guy, cars account for only 15% of gobal emissions, how about tackling the other 85% before messing with cars that give so many benefits for a small price?

You are trying to annoy me by saying "Even VAG & Mercedes are developing Hybrid Technology and if they're spending money on it you know its here to stay!" really immature.

Flynn2...............Whilst I appreciate the discussion and debate that makes this subject so interesting, I do feel that there is no room in the discussion for personal insults to other forum members.

Please moderate your personal insults to the other members who are contributing to a healthy discussion. :)

[Phoenix999]

The constant debates on hybrid technology fascinate me as do those that slag off the Prius.

To those that slate the Prius.... for heavens sake get a life as there are worse looking cars on the road. Think on this, the Prius only has a 1500cc engine coupled to the electric motor, it manages to harness the wasted energy of the car's movement and stores in the batteries thus allowing that energy to be used to boost and assist the engine to give it the power output of a larger and higher cc unit. This is what I call good technology which makes use of energy that would otherwise be wasted. Get off the bandwagon that it has higher mpg and think more about the lower emissions per mile. Oh and that is cheaper to run as far as the car tax and, most likely, insurance is concerned. As far as recycling is concerned, all cars are recycled and the Prius will be treated in the same way with little or nothing wasted.

Now please consider this.... if hybrid technology was not the way forward does anyone really think that Toyota/Lexus would invest billions into their new range of cars? Toyota are not the only car makers looking down this route so that simply makes the argument in favour of hybrids much stronger. The car industry has to change as fossil fuels are depleted so we have to change with it.

Flynn2.... we would still like to know what car you drive :D

[Boro Sera]

You are trying to annoy me by saying "Even VAG & Mercedes are developing Hybrid Technology and if they're spending money on it you know its here to stay!" really immature.

Haha, it's somewhere between hubris and a Napoleon complex to claim that this was an attempt to annoy you......this is a fact coming from companies who actually KNOW the car market. If it upsets you in any way then I'd suggest you reassess your values somewhat.

Flynn2.... we would still like to know what car you drive :D

At 18 years old it's a safe bet that it isn't a sports car. I used to like sports cars at that age too, but they don't interest me much at all now. If I want speed, handling and good looks from a vehicle I'll just get another Fireblade