Anybody else disappointed by Toyota's new EV focus?

[SB1500]

One of the things I really admired about Toyota was how the CEO could see through a lot of the hype with EVs. There are a lot of good arguments for and against them, but I think having at least one major global manufacture batting the corner of alternative solutions that work for all of the world and not just the US / Europe was a good thing. 

Quite disappointed if this means the end of full focus on the Hybrid technology. Looking at the improvements to the Corolla Hybrid system this year and how much faster, better to drive and efficient its gotten at the same time, one must wonder just how far this could go in the space of another decade! Hydrogen also only had a hope with the likes of Toyota behind it. The infrastructure argument is only as strong as it was for EVs a decade or two ago, but that would be even faster given that any typical petrol station can implement it without needing to tarmac a large car park on the side. 

It's crazy to think that the new Corolla with the 1.8 Hybrid is actually cheaper to fuel right now - even with inflated fuel costs - than an equivalent EV given the energy prices today. They certainly aren't going down in a hurry. The company I worked for recently stopped offering free EV charging across its sites to employees. They introduced a new EV programme for company car drivers, but I spotted that in their little comparisons, the EVs were base models and the ICE equivalent was the biggest engine, automatic Lux model and the EV still came out about 5k more to buy...  There seems to be a lot of convenient overlooking in the details to make them actually seem attractive to everyday buyers. Other than emissions there aren't any, really... They're faster than your bog standard non sport model yeah, but compared to some of the iconic fast engines in our hot hatches and even higher end sports cars, I don't see Ferrari owners parting with their V12s for Tesla's all the same. 

Hoping that Toyota perseveres with Hybrid. Some parts of the world can't keep the lights on for a week straight, their power grid whether we install the chargers or not simply won't work. It won't be until 2027 that their truly new 'full effort' EVs come to market. I can't imagine EVs will be as popular as they are today by then, as too many real people will have bought and owned, been caught short on charge and lost a lot of money on them for that to continue at todays pace. I might be wrong - but you sure as hell can't say you're any more right with any more certainty! 

 

Anyone else disappointed with the new direction? 

[Yugguy1970]

Until the UK government changes its blinkered stance Toyota must create EVs to keep on selling cars here.  That's not their fault.

[SB1500]

1 hour ago, Yugguy1970 said:

Until the UK government changes its blinkered stance Toyota must create EVs to keep on selling cars here.  That's not their fault.

I'm quite confident it will happen. Isn't our current stance our application of the EU ban in 2035, brought forward to 2030 by our national government in order to 'be more green sooner'? 

I think it's clear that coming closer to the date, that will at least be delayed, if not scrapped. If they would promote EVs possible in areas like Central London and similar so 'enough' people have them that can make that small difference where it might actually help someone or something. But the blanket ban is a joke!  I'd totally get it if they undoubtedly, beyond all criticism, even made a dent in the issue at hand! 

[Yugguy1970]

Their strategy docs still only talk about hydrogen for commercial travel, trucks and trains.  I want them to support it for private transport too.

[SB1500]

35 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

Their strategy docs still only talk about hydrogen for commercial travel, trucks and trains.  I want them to support it for private transport too.

They'll need nationwide infrastructure to do that, even important supply up to remote areas like Scottish Highlands etc, so if that happens - and let's face it, we don't have an alternative yet to ICE for these vehicles and won't by 2035 - then it'll be easy enough for it to be opened up to private individuals.  Maybe one pump off to the side at higher clearance stations / services to begin with and then a slow conversion trickling down at less busy stations. I'm sure it'll take government investment to cover key areas initially.  

I seen Toyota are crafty in providing Hydrogen fuelled mobile container unit EV charging stations at events... nice little reminder that Hydrogen will be plugging the gap for EVs to EV owners and investors.. lol 

[Cyker]

It's not really a change of direction; Toyota have always had EVs on their road map. I've been keeping an eye on their strategy as I thought it was very sensible - Their original plan was to ramp up hybrid production and first hybridize all their cars (So we might see an Aygo hybrid at some point  ), and use the profits from those to go hard on Battery research, as they recognised early on that batteries or electrical storage was going to be the key that will make or break mass adoption of EVs.

However, their road map was built around the original agreed 2040 cut-off date, and I think they got blindsided by it being brought forward to 2030, which is why they've been campaigning hard to push the cut-off date back as it's royally screwed up their plans - The seeds of their Battery research is nowhere near fruition and there's only so much you can do to accelerate that.

So now they're having to build the same compromised EVs that everyone else is making with their giant size and weight and terrible range, while they wait for their research to bring the breakthroughs that will blow existing EVs out of the proverbial.

That's what I'm waiting for, and hopefully the charging infrastructure will be less awful by then too!

I think the new CEO is designed to be more investor-friendly; It turns out Akio Toyoda was a rabid petrol head which is why car enthusiasts loved him and why the new TNGA cars are sooooooo much nicer to drive than their older cars. I am a bit worried they will back-slide to their old ways without him pushing for the importance of driving dynamics without compromising core Toyota strengths.

But investors don't like stuff like that, they want to hear all the eco buzz words like green and eco and sustainable and carbon neutral and net zero and all that kind of guff.

 

[AJones]

I would say the opposite, Toyota has been too slow to focus on plug-in vehicles, both EVs and PHEVs and it's good that it's finally moving in that direction.

Toyota has millions of customers, some will want to stick with regular hybrids and they can, but many customers, particularly businesses and fleets, want vehicles which are lower emission and so are looking to shift some or all of their miles to electric, wanting PHEVs and EVs. If it stays focused purely on regular hybrids then those customers wanting plug-ins will steadily go elsewhere.

The lack of focus on PHEVs is a particular shame because Toyota's hybrid system is really efficient compared to other manufacturers and in PHEV form, could make it possible for most drivers to shift to electric driving without any range issue or charging concerns.

[SB1500]

I was looking into it over the weekend online, and a few of the things I thought made EVs silly and impractical aren't actually all true. Such as impact on the grid and all that, as well as number of charging stations etc.  Though there are things like hi-rise tower block residents and that whole energy cost issue, as electric / heating fuel is quite bad right now.  I know petrol / diesel is similar root, but seems to be isolated a bit from home electric / heating prices and fluctuates on its own accord. 

The only comfort I can try to find is that 'whatever Toyota does, will be a mature and sensible solution' in line with its history as a company and brand. And also that is is a Japanese company, and thankfully more removed from any kind of fad, or artificial influence that the EU would be able to enforce within Europe (e.g. saying that a car firm must have a % of EVs, or an EV centric strategy, or huge tax pushes). I know as a company operating within Europe as a key market, Toyota still can't ignore this - but so far I think that's why it was so vocal and confident about not going all in. Which so far has kept the arguments against EVs credible. 

Time will tell. It's a shame though as much as what I've learnt in the last decade about fixing little petrol engines and now diesel, will all be for nothing :') 

[Cyker]

Yeah that is painful - So much mechanical knowledge and experience will fade away with EVs.

But we as a species seem to be getting stupider so maybe it's not so bad...!

 

[AJones]

11 hours ago, SB1500 said:

The only comfort I can try to find is that 'whatever Toyota does, will be a mature and sensible solution' in line with its history as a company and brand. And also that is is a Japanese company, and thankfully more removed from any kind of fad, or artificial influence that the EU would be able to enforce within Europe (e.g. saying that a car firm must have a % of EVs, or an EV centric strategy, or huge tax pushes).

Japan and Europe are not the same, European countries have moved faster to decarbonise their electricity grids, whereas Japan's electricity grid is still heavily dependent on coal and gas.

That affects the comparison between hybrids and EVs, in Japan with lots of coal and gas used for electricity, the emissions benefits of an EV over a hybrid are lower so a push towards EVs provides less emission reduction. Hybrids are a sensible choice in Japan.

The situation in many European countries is the complete opposite, with electricity being significantly cleaner, the EV has a huge emissions advantage over the hybrid which grows as decarbonisation progresses, so a switch to EVs delivers significant carbon savings. EVs are the sensible choice in many European countries.

 

[Big_D]

As Toyota sell vehicles into Africa,(and other counties, where normal fossil fuels are easier to come by than electric chargers, this would also be taken into consideration as part of their business strategy.

[Cyker]

France maybe, I'm pretty sure the rest of us are still running primarily on gas or coal...

 

[Big_D]

1 minute ago, Cyker said:

France maybe, I'm pretty sure the rest of us are still running primarily on gas or coal...

 

Sorry Cyker. Perhaps I should have been more specific. I meany the Toyota vehicles themselves, not the Power Stations.

[AJones]

4 minutes ago, Cyker said:

France maybe, I'm pretty sure the rest of us are still running primarily on gas or coal...

Electricity carbon intensity by country - Japan @ 479gCO2/kWh, lots of European countries like France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway all less than half that amount, some far far lower. The electricity sources and fuel mix makes a big difference.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/carbon-intensity-electricity

 

[SB1500]

16 hours ago, Cyker said:

Yeah that is painful - So much mechanical knowledge and experience will fade away with EVs.

But we as a species seem to be getting stupider so maybe it's not so bad...!

It's certainly easy to come to that conclusion looking at social media and the mainstream legacy media these days! Can't agree more on that front. However, when I look at some of the things we're doing (at the company I work for presently - Japanese too coincidentally) they're doing some incredibly powerful things in the way of research into personalised medicine and health research. Some people, somewhere seem to be doing all of the leg work and big thinking so that the 'rest of us' can sleep better at night, or in the case of some, be reckless and outright stupid... lol 

If fixing my future inevitable EV is like fixing my MacBook Pro or Apple kit.... gosh we're in for trouble. Hahaha 

13 hours ago, AJones said:

Japan and Europe are not the same, European countries have moved faster to decarbonise their electricity grids, whereas Japan's electricity grid is still heavily dependent on coal and gas.

Aren't we in Europe too though? We might not be producing / making it within our countries, but we're sure as hell buying it in. EU especially, they might be publishing clean figures per country about 'we refined so little oil fuel this year' but that doesn't mean they are buying it and burning it and that the lights will go off without it - sadly. It's a bit like the Euro6 car emissions etc, good idea in theory and great bragging point to look at what we're doing to achieve it, but a lot of little loopholes and following the letter not the spirit of the law in reality?

13 hours ago, AJones said:

That affects the comparison between hybrids and EVs, in Japan with lots of coal and gas used for electricity, the emissions benefits of an EV over a hybrid are lower so a push towards EVs provides less emission reduction. Hybrids are a sensible choice in Japan.

Here EVs seem to be good for places like London where the actual breathable air quality would be better without exhausts. Maybe noise pollution too, a little better. But other than that?  The other benefits seem to depend on what power station is keeping the charge point alive?

13 hours ago, AJones said:

The situation in many European countries is the complete opposite, with electricity being significantly cleaner, the EV has a huge emissions advantage over the hybrid which grows as decarbonisation progresses, so a switch to EVs delivers significant carbon savings. EVs are the sensible choice in many European countries.

It's offsetting it really, no? From the busy street in London, to the coal / gas station a couple of hundred of miles away - unless we know it's all coming from renewables / clean electric but I don't know the numbers on it.  What I have read though was about how expensive wind and solar etc is to invest in, and how a lot of private investors (small ones that feel the impact of it) have lost out big time. Some farmers here in NI around a decade ago started getting turbines installed. I don't think they're even close a decade later to making back the installation let alone profit? I wonder what kind of an impact these are making across the country with all these sites we saw pop up. But they haven't continued to pop up, so surely something is a miss?   If we had a good nuclear strategy - that'd really shut me up, virtually unlimited supply, for a long long time and as green as you can be! Enough and more to power all of our EVs and electric demand. I know the time and money cost of this, but seriously, if we weren't wasting our attention and public interest in strategies that turn out to be outright backwards (diesel urge in the late 90s) or useless (my understanding of the wind turbines etc in their current applications / impacts) then maybe we could have already been underway to our saviour from this?

13 hours ago, Big_D said:

As Toyota sell vehicles into Africa,(and other counties, where normal fossil fuels are easier to come by than electric chargers, this would also be taken into consideration as part of their business strategy.

That's true. We take for granted how some countries can't keep the lights on for 7 days straight. And we're here telling them to be more green because we have the privilege of choosing to be. Well, we did. It's sort of being forced on us now isn't it? Taxes and rising costs in the name of being eco-friendly but it's really only hitting the working man and woman trying to get to work in their old beat up ICE car. Hitting the supermarket shelve and inflation as a whole - there's no good reason to make people starve. The climate is so important, but it's not an emergency.  You're talking about four thousand years at least before we get theoretically close to it being an 'emergency'.  How can anyone over 40 not personally recollect the number of times they were told that in their life and it was a hoax. Serious issue, needing serious solutions - but a joke of a delivery / petty poor tactics to gauge public concern. If anything they risk losing peoples concern if they keep lying and catastrophising without truth behind it.  

13 hours ago, AJones said:

Electricity carbon intensity by country - Japan @ 479gCO2/kWh, lots of European countries like France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway all less than half that amount, some far far lower. The electricity sources and fuel mix makes a big difference.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/carbon-intensity-electricity

 

I wonder if my theory above is behind how we in Europe can report such positive figures though, because we're happy to buy it in and essentially 'offset' the pollution and letting Russia or some other provider do the nasty dirty bits.  I know cutting down on the refineries last year in the UK is why we saw a fuel price increase - artificially limiting / costing more to procure because of that, in the name of wanting to be greener. All I know is I can't drive my car for fun anymore, like I used to. I have to think about the trips I make now, I have to say no to things otherwise a significant amount of my spending every single week goes into a diesel pump 😕 And we're talking rural Northern Ireland, not a place where thousands want to do the same and contribute to choking pedestrians around them. I don't see the need for the punishment. If it was saving the world - Yes. But it isn't.  

[Cyker]

19 hours ago, AJones said:

Electricity carbon intensity by country - Japan @ 479gCO2/kWh, lots of European countries like France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway all less than half that amount, some far far lower. The electricity sources and fuel mix makes a big difference.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/carbon-intensity-electricity

 

That's about half the EU, but the other half, e.g. Germany, Poland, Italy, Netherlands, Ireland etc. are a bit closer!

That's a cool graph tho'.

I must admit I thought japan's was lower due to their use of nuclear power, but I guess this must be the result of them all being shut down after the Fukushima thing