Clocked Toyota

[Mikey Silo]

Hey everyone.

I've just joined the forum, having just gotten myself a '94 Celica GT. But after having it less than i week I've made a very bad discovery and now I need some advice on what to do next.

I'm pretty new to buying cars (I've been driving for coming up to 2 years), and up to last week I was driving a '97 Toyota Paseo Si. Unfortunately I had a bump in that on some ice in December. It was cosmetic, but based on the age and general condition of the car, plus the rarity of parts for it, the best option was to get rid. My mum drives an imported '97 Celica, and since I like it and know how reliable it has been I decided to look at getting one myself.

After looking around for a few weeks I found an 'M' reg '94 Celica GT on Auto Trader with 83k on the clock advertised at £1100. I went and viewed the car, but I'm no mechanic, and inexperienced as mentioned. I checked around the body, checked the lights work, had it running for a while, had a quick run in it, made sure things like the seats were ok, etc. The dealer had no service history, although it had just been MOT'ed. I was worried about driving my paseo around in it's battered state, and although it had been deemed safe I was still concerned it might die or might be illegal. So, I persuaded the seller to do a part-exchange. I got the Celica for £900 and was happy. BUT... after a few days of use I noticed the odometer wasn't moving. I've now been on the VOSA website and tracked it's MOT history. In November 2007 it was MOT'ed twice... once at 171k miles, and then later in the month at 83K, as it is now. :( :( :(

I know now, only too well, just how niave I've been. But I'm really in need of a few words of advice on what to do next, other than speaking to trading standards and finding out if I've got any ability to get my cash back.

As far as the car goes right now, it seems fine. It runs really well, it's smooth, although on these cold mornings it doesn't start every time. It's very tidy and before I knew about this milage issue I loved it. Because I have no history for it I've got it booked in for a full service and timing belt change next week, which was going to cost a total £440. But now of course I'm wondering whether to bother putting another penny into it. The service might come back saying it's in really good shape and has lots of life left, but do I risk another £440 to find out? I've even wondered about keeping it and then looking at getting a reconditioned engine put in if it eventually gives in. But in all honesty I just don't know :(

Please help me

[Norfolk n Chance]

Don't have it serviced yet!!

Speak to Trading Standards and Citizens Advice first!

Edit: After a quick Google give Consumerline a call on 0845 600 6262 as well!

[bar]

thats well bad that is whas wrong with people theses days.

defo speak to trading standards mate

[Parts-King]

Depends how you bought it, private or from a garage?

If it's a garage then you can simply reject the car, not as advertised (mileage incorrect) so a breach of contract. If it's a private sale there is little you can do. A chat with the previous owner might make him feel guilty (if he even knows?) and he may offer you money off or better still money back. If you like the car and want to keep it, negotiate a chunk of money back ;)

Kingo

[GreyRacer]

I noticed you referred to ''dealer'' in your post therefore I presume it is via a trader or garage.

Trading Standards are the way to go. Advise your ''dealer'' what you have discovered, giving him a chance to rectify the situation to your advantage and if not that you are going down the TS path.

[Fawbs]

Hey everyone.

I've just joined the forum, having just gotten myself a '94 Celica GT. But after having it less than i week I've made a very bad discovery and now I need some advice on what to do next.

I'm pretty new to buying cars (I've been driving for coming up to 2 years), and up to last week I was driving a '97 Toyota Paseo Si. Unfortunately I had a bump in that on some ice in December. It was cosmetic, but based on the age and general condition of the car, plus the rarity of parts for it, the best option was to get rid. My mum drives an imported '97 Celica, and since I like it and know how reliable it has been I decided to look at getting one myself.

After looking around for a few weeks I found an 'M' reg '94 Celica GT on Auto Trader with 83k on the clock advertised at £1100. I went and viewed the car, but I'm no mechanic, and inexperienced as mentioned. I checked around the body, checked the lights work, had it running for a while, had a quick run in it, made sure things like the seats were ok, etc. The dealer had no service history, although it had just been MOT'ed. I was worried about driving my paseo around in it's battered state, and although it had been deemed safe I was still concerned it might die or might be illegal. So, I persuaded the seller to do a part-exchange. I got the Celica for £900 and was happy. BUT... after a few days of use I noticed the odometer wasn't moving. I've now been on the VOSA website and tracked it's MOT history. In November 2007 it was MOT'ed twice... once at 171k miles, and then later in the month at 83K, as it is now. :( :( :(

I know now, only too well, just how niave I've been. But I'm really in need of a few words of advice on what to do next, other than speaking to trading standards and finding out if I've got any ability to get my cash back.

As far as the car goes right now, it seems fine. It runs really well, it's smooth, although on these cold mornings it doesn't start every time. It's very tidy and before I knew about this milage issue I loved it. Because I have no history for it I've got it booked in for a full service and timing belt change next week, which was going to cost a total £440. But now of course I'm wondering whether to bother putting another penny into it. The service might come back saying it's in really good shape and has lots of life left, but do I risk another £440 to find out? I've even wondered about keeping it and then looking at getting a reconditioned engine put in if it eventually gives in. But in all honesty I just don't know :(

Please help me

I agree do not service it yet or anything and 440 quid is way too high, just find the manual online and do it yourself its much more satisfying. I had an engine out/in of my gt4 for just over 300 quid so shop around (i couldnt do that cause i dont have equipment or garage). Phone the guy up and see what he says put some pressure on him if i was you, remember it is your money so don't let the guy take the p***. Try and find out if he owned it when the mileage was altered and if he did then, pow. ha

[Mikey Silo]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Ok, I've called and cancelled the service, so that's done for now.

Don't have it serviced yet!!

Speak to Trading Standards and Citizens Advice first!

Edit: After a quick Google give Consumerline a call on 0845 600 6262 as well!

Yeah, I think that's gonna be my first move, just to find out first off where I might stand. I'll check out that Consumerline too, thanks a lot mate. Although as mentioned by Parts-King and GreyRacer, I think it'll depend on whether it was a private or dealer sale, and this is where it get's a little bit fuzzy...

Depends how you bought it, private or from a garage?

If it's a garage then you can simply reject the car, not as advertised (mileage incorrect) so a breach of contract. If it's a private sale there is little you can do. A chat with the previous owner might make him feel guilty (if he even knows?) and he may offer you money off or better still money back.

I noticed you referred to ''dealer'' in your post therefore I presume it is via a trader or garage.

Trading Standards are the way to go. Advise your ''dealer'' what you have discovered, giving him a chance to rectify the situation to your advantage and if not that you are going down the TS path.

The seller is, as far as I can tell, a dealer. He advertises under a dealer name, although I know it's a side line to his main business which is landscape gardening! He runs the car business from home... so he's not a full size forecourt dealer. That wouold lead me to believe he just does it as a hobby, and no matter what he calls himself as a dealer it's still essentially a private sale. BUT... if you look on the V5 docs for your motor there's a section for transfering ownership of the vehicle to a dealership for sale or scrapping. This is the part that he filled in on my Paseo's V5, and which I then needed to send to the DVLA, to give him ownership as the part-exchange - he used his dealer/trade name on that.

So that makes me think he must be listed as a proper dealer in some way. Does anyone know any better??

The other thing is I did only get a hand written reciept, and it does say 'sold as seen' on it... although given that I'd 'seen' 83k on the clock.

He told me he only had it a few weeks and got it from another dealer, which did spark me off thinking what did he pay then and why was the other dealer letting it go cheap... but I overlooked it in the end like an idiot eyeing up a new toy.

If you like the car and want to keep it, negotiate a chunk of money back ;)

Yeah, well this is partly one of the things I was considering too. If he'll at least give me a chunk back then it might cover the service, a reconditioned engine, or I could just sell it on (and be honest about the milage!) for as much as I can.

I agree do not service it yet or anything and 440 quid is way too high, just find the manual online and do it yourself its much more satisfying. I had an engine out/in of my gt4 for just over 300 quid so shop around (i couldnt do that cause i dont have equipment or garage). Phone the guy up and see what he says put some pressure on him if i was you, remember it is your money so don't let the guy take the p***. Try and find out if he owned it when the mileage was altered and if he did then, pow. ha

Yeah, I wish I was more mechanically minded, but I think I'd struggle to do it myself, and finding time to do it would be difficult... I'd probably take ages for fear of doing something wrong! But are you saying you paid just over £300 to get a reconditioned GT4 engine put into your celica for just over £300? Sorry, I'm not sure if I've misunderstood, but that's what it sounds like since you say you don't have the gear to do it yourself. If that's right then it sounds incredible, and certainly puts the idea of a service and timing belt change for £440 to shame! If that sort of thing is possible then to be honest I'd be more inclined to keep the car and do that since, fundamentally, I do like it and was specifically looking out for a Celica! I guess I'll need to investigate it.

But yeah, I'm still gonna go to trading standards and then to the seller anyway. I'll tell you something... I feel like a total mug now, that's for sure. :( I'll let you know how I get on with Trading Standards.

Cheers

Mikey

[GreyRacer]

When you go to see the dealer take a friend with you even if he just sits in the car while you have your chat.

And don't berate yourself any more. Just be positive now. Learn from any mistakes. I'm sure next time you go to buy a car you'll be more aware of the things to check. Make out a list and stick to it. There are a few good sites like Auto Express that give you information on what to look out for.

Good luck.

BTW here is another good Celica Owners Forum

celica-club.co.uk

[Pat2u]

I take it as yet you have not got a log book in your name ? I have only ever come across this once in my life on a transit van i owned, when i changed my engine due to a total write off of the old engine, i recall the speedo giving one reading of 112000 however due to the engine change the log book stated that the changed engine had been put in at 63000 and the speedo reading had the old reading of 112000 or so on it, could this be whats happened in your instance ?

Its just a thought, and i would therefore check engine numbers ect to see if they tally with the log book.

[Fawbs]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Ok, I've called and cancelled the service, so that's done for now.

Don't have it serviced yet!!

Speak to Trading Standards and Citizens Advice first!

Edit: After a quick Google give Consumerline a call on 0845 600 6262 as well!

Yeah, I think that's gonna be my first move, just to find out first off where I might stand. I'll check out that Consumerline too, thanks a lot mate. Although as mentioned by Parts-King and GreyRacer, I think it'll depend on whether it was a private or dealer sale, and this is where it get's a little bit fuzzy...

Depends how you bought it, private or from a garage?

If it's a garage then you can simply reject the car, not as advertised (mileage incorrect) so a breach of contract. If it's a private sale there is little you can do. A chat with the previous owner might make him feel guilty (if he even knows?) and he may offer you money off or better still money back.

I noticed you referred to ''dealer'' in your post therefore I presume it is via a trader or garage.

Trading Standards are the way to go. Advise your ''dealer'' what you have discovered, giving him a chance to rectify the situation to your advantage and if not that you are going down the TS path.

The seller is, as far as I can tell, a dealer. He advertises under a dealer name, although I know it's a side line to his main business which is landscape gardening! He runs the car business from home... so he's not a full size forecourt dealer. That wouold lead me to believe he just does it as a hobby, and no matter what he calls himself as a dealer it's still essentially a private sale. BUT... if you look on the V5 docs for your motor there's a section for transfering ownership of the vehicle to a dealership for sale or scrapping. This is the part that he filled in on my Paseo's V5, and which I then needed to send to the DVLA, to give him ownership as the part-exchange - he used his dealer/trade name on that.

So that makes me think he must be listed as a proper dealer in some way. Does anyone know any better??

The other thing is I did only get a hand written reciept, and it does say 'sold as seen' on it... although given that I'd 'seen' 83k on the clock.

He told me he only had it a few weeks and got it from another dealer, which did spark me off thinking what did he pay then and why was the other dealer letting it go cheap... but I overlooked it in the end like an idiot eyeing up a new toy.

If you like the car and want to keep it, negotiate a chunk of money back ;)

Yeah, well this is partly one of the things I was considering too. If he'll at least give me a chunk back then it might cover the service, a reconditioned engine, or I could just sell it on (and be honest about the milage!) for as much as I can.

I agree do not service it yet or anything and 440 quid is way too high, just find the manual online and do it yourself its much more satisfying. I had an engine out/in of my gt4 for just over 300 quid so shop around (i couldnt do that cause i dont have equipment or garage). Phone the guy up and see what he says put some pressure on him if i was you, remember it is your money so don't let the guy take the p***. Try and find out if he owned it when the mileage was altered and if he did then, pow. ha

Yeah, I wish I was more mechanically minded, but I think I'd struggle to do it myself, and finding time to do it would be difficult... I'd probably take ages for fear of doing something wrong! But are you saying you paid just over £300 to get a reconditioned GT4 engine put into your celica for just over £300? Sorry, I'm not sure if I've misunderstood, but that's what it sounds like since you say you don't have the gear to do it yourself. If that's right then it sounds incredible, and certainly puts the idea of a service and timing belt change for £440 to shame! If that sort of thing is possible then to be honest I'd be more inclined to keep the car and do that since, fundamentally, I do like it and was specifically looking out for a Celica! I guess I'll need to investigate it.

But yeah, I'm still gonna go to trading standards and then to the seller anyway. I'll tell you something... I feel like a total mug now, that's for sure. :( I'll let you know how I get on with Trading Standards.

Cheers

Mikey

No i meant to take the old engine out cause i cracked the block then put the new engine i bought in, so just the labour to take it out then in. Equipment wise i didnt have a hoist even though you can drop it out the bottom and i didnt have a garage to leave the car in do it myself.

[Parts-King]

He is a dealer!, go back and reject the car on the grounds of the car being misdescribed with the mileage. Take the paperwork showing the mileage readouts, and ask for a refund. He doesn't have a lot of choice, if you explain calmly what you want, he may well be reasonable. If you decide to keep it and he gives you SOME money back, you can't then go back to him later if the car goes horribly wrong, so decide what you want now and stick to your guns

Kingo

[sjrainsford]

Daft question I know, but has the car got any service history? I'm thinking along the lines that maybe the speedo was changed at a certain point for one with that mileage on? If it's all documented then the car isn't as bad as you think. However, the dealer should still be advertising it's correct mileage - so yeah, as above - get on to them!

[GreyRacer]

Daft question I know, but has the car got any service history? I'm thinking along the lines that maybe the speedo was changed at a certain point for one with that mileage on? If it's all documented then the car isn't as bad as you think. However, the dealer should still be advertising it's correct mileage - so yeah, as above - get on to them!

Quote

The dealer had no service history, although it had just been MOT'ed. I was worried about driving my paseo around in it's battered state, and

Unquote

:)

[Ignostikz]

i havnt read all the posts, but personally if the car runs fine and has no other faults except the belt and the misleading odometer, i would keep it.

get the car serviced and odometer corrected if its possible

[Parts-King]

i would keep it.

get the car serviced and odometer corrected if its possible

You cant do that, getting the speedo "corrected" is illegal, how would you know what the correct mileage is?

Reject the car OR keep it and get some money back

Kingo

[GT4 BOOSTER]

whos to say the dealer knew the correct mileage ? did it have a sticker on the clocks saying something like present mileage may be incorrect ??

[Mikey Silo]

Hi everyone, thanks again for all the advice and comments. I've spoken to the Trading Standards advice line so I thought I'd give you all an update.

Thankfully, as Parts-King said, things look to be on my side. TS confirmed that based on what I've told them about the transaction process and how he took my old car off my hands, he is a dealer. His 'sold as seen' receipt stands for nothing effectively since he's misdescribed the item for sale.

whos to say the dealer knew the correct mileage ? did it have a sticker on the clocks saying something like present mileage may be incorrect ??

This was amongst my concerns regarding how TS would see it, but from what I've been told it doesn't matter if he did know or not since he's in the trade and selling cars which aren't as he's describing them. Admittedly if I'd been more clued up I could have asked him for the details I needed to check the VOSA website, see the MOT history, and find out what I now know before buying. I didn't know you could do that, and I accepted that there was no history with the car, but the fact remains that he is a trader who advertised an 'immaculate' car which had done 83k - not 171k. From what TS have said it's him as a trader who had responsibility to ensure that what he sold was what he said it was. If it really had done 83K and I had it checked out and discovered it was on it's last legs, then that would have been my gamble. But if I'd had an idea it had done 171k I wouldn't have even gone to look at it.

i would keep it.

get the car serviced and odometer corrected if its possible

You cant do that, getting the speedo "corrected" is illegal, how would you know what the correct mileage is?

Reject the car OR keep it and get some money back

Kingo

Yeah, I wondered what the situation would be with that, but as mentioned I wouldn't know what the real milage is now, so how would I correct it? Having said all I have about the car, it looks and feels great. I really had no worries before finding out, and it's the knowledge I have now that's caused all of my concern. I am considering going with the idea of trying to get a chunk of my cash back and just keeping it. Originally I figured I could afford to Shell out about £1500 at most. If I can get half of my cash back or so, then it should cover the costs of a full service and cam belt kit. If I'm then told the engine gives in within a year or so after that then I'm thinking I could look at getting a reconditioned engine put back in and maybe still have only spent around that £1500 mark then. I'm undecided at the minute, but first off I'm gonna get someone to have a good look over it for any stand out signs that it just wouldn't be worth it. What's your opinion on that?

Anyway, I emailed the seller on Tuesday evening and was very civil about it, bascially asking if we can come to an arrangment on some sort of refund. He hasn't gotten back yet, but if he's willing to then I won't involve TS anymore (I haven't mentioned them to him yet). TS have told me I need to write to him, on paper, asking for my cash back before they can take more action, which is difficult since I don't know his full address - I'll need to call him to ask that at least. If he refuses to give it then they said they can take it from there. But I'll get the car looked at first I think so that I can decide exactly what I want back before I call him.

[Norfolk n Chance]

At least all is not lost as yet!

Deffo have you car looked over and get a quote for anything that needs doing.

Then try and argue that amount back from the dealer if you're happy to keep the car

[Mikey Silo]

Yeah, it's looking like things are in my favour at least anyway, which makes me feel a bit better :)

I had a look online this morning for reconditioned engine prices too, just to gauge what it would cost. One of them just got back with this...

Mileage .fully tested, opened and checked with pressure tested head, new head gasket, new mains & big ends-please call ian on *************

Price £295.00

Delivery £50.00

Subtotal £345.00

VAT £0.00

Total £345.00

Warranty 12 Months

Comments

Quote Brought To You From findanengine

... Only the first one I've had, but how does that sound? I noticed VAT isn't counted though, and of course I know there's the labour to think about too. But that's actually less than i thought it might be.

[martin1810]

Take it back and ask for your money back. Most traders won't argue. It's not worth the fuss for them. Then you can look for a car you are happy with.

[cfc1]

Back to the point of correcting the mileage.. as Pats King said it is ileagal to change the odometer under ANY circumstances, even if a new engine is fitted, whether it be brand new or 2nd hand, this is because the reading displayed isn't there just solely for the engine, but also the gearbox, wheel bearings, axles etc etc etc.. absolutely everything on the car.

If it was me I would get the car fully checked over with special attention to the engine and gearbox, if all seems good I would then try to find out how much the car is worth with the Starship Enterprise mileage, I would then go to the dealer.. (ANYONE who buys and sells cars from home, whether as a hobby or is VAT registered or not is a dealer.. if not registere officially as a dealer.. the simple fact that they are earning monies from doing so means they are dealing in cars) and tell them what you know and tell them you want the car for LESS than it's actual real worth... and a fair bit less, afterall you have been seriously misled and deceived out of your money.. could argue that it was a fraudulent sale... but that would be pushing it lol. If the dealer agrees then you just may end up with enough cash back to buy and fit a good recon and have a good car.

The easiest option of course would be to hand the car back and get your money back.. if he doesn't agree, then it's off to court with him.

[Calisto]

If you are considering getting an engine then please check out....

http://www.fensport.co.uk/fensportcars.htm

and

http://www.tcbparts.co.uk/

[Fawbs]

If you are considering getting an engine then please check out....

http://www.fensport.co.uk/fensportcars.htm

and

http://www.tcbparts.co.uk/

Why arent you out in the boro tonight you should hang your head in shame.

[Calisto]

If you are considering getting an engine then please check out....

http://www.fensport.co.uk/fensportcars.htm

and

http://www.tcbparts.co.uk/

Why arent you out in the boro tonight you should hang your head in shame.

What have I missed ????

I will be back in Boro on Tuesday.....will that do you?

[Mikey Silo]

Cheers for all of the advice everyone, I really appreciate it :)

I've now spoken to the guy (on Monday), and trading standards are on the case and poised for action too ;) At present I'm being very civil about it in the hope we can sort it out amicably, and I haven't told him I've spoken to TS. I'm more inclined now to keep the car if he'll give me a chunk of my cash back, so that I've paid what I think the car is truly worth based on it's true milage. TS have confirmed that the car has blatantly been mis-sold and if I choose to reject it then I'm due my money back. I'm really impressed with the support TS give actually, since they have been calling me to check on details and find out what action I want to take.

When I spoek to the seller he basically came across as ignorant to his obligations as a dealer. He said he didn't know the mileage was wrong and it was sold as seen, to which my response has been that the car was specifically advertised with a milage which was false. Whether he really doesn't know what his responsibilities are and what my rights are, or if he just hopes I don't know, is uncertain. But the call ended with him saying he will go back to the person he got the car from and ask some questions. As irrelevent to me that is, I agreed. So I'm gonna give him til the end of the week and then chase him up again I reckon.

Like I said, I'm more inclined to keep the car now, for the right price, since it does seem to run fine and it's in great condition, and although a full refund would end the matter I'd then be left with no car for however long. That would be a big problem with work, let alone getting around for anything else. TS also told me that if they get involved in claiming a refund then I need to be careful how I use the car, since I'm rejecting it. I could probably get away with going to work in it as 'reasonable use', but anyhting above that would be questionable, and we don't know how long it could take. So, I CAN go down that route if needed, but I don't really want to. In terms of getting some of the cash back, they've told me they don't think they can get involved since it then becomes a civil issue - just him and me agreeing or not agreeing on the value of the car. I'd like £400 back since (with cash and my old car) he's had £1075 out of me. The value is hard to determine though. I've looked around a fair bit and found nothing the same age with as many miles as mine, but I've found some close which vary between around £500 up to £1400. Mine is in really good shape cosmetically, but of course it has no history and I haven't had it checked over. I guess I'm still undecided, but we'll see what he says next...