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Rav4 2.0 D4D Xt-R 5Door 05 Plate With Big Problems

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Hi everyone

Brand Newbie to this brilliant forum and I am hoping I could get some advice re my poorly Rav.

The story starts a couple of months ago when I was pulling out of a junction onto a dual carriageway. The traffic was light so I didn't need to put thrash the car to get away (not that I ever do). However, I had no sooner got into 4th gear when there was a slight knock felt through the floor of the car, and it immediately began to loose all drive to the wheels. I managed to get the car onto the grass verge (despite the HGV behind me driving right up the preverbal the whole time :fear: ).

Anyhow, once I settled down a bit, I thought I would restart the car to try and work out what had happened (my first thought was clutch failure). So, clutch pedal down, out of gear, ignition - and the engine fired up no problem and sounded fine. Clutch down again, into first with no issues. I then started to lift the clutch pedal and the car felt like it was going to pull away, but nothing. The engine was running in 1st, but no drive at all to the wheels :no: . I did the same but in reverse - same thing. The car just seemed to lurch slightly and then sat back on its haunches with no drive. RAC man called out, and he tried the same sequence to no avail. So...car on the back of his truck and taken home.

The next day, I had one more go. Started the engine...fine. In first...same thing. So I took it out of gear and was just about to turn the ignition off and the engine just sluttered to a very quiet death. Its never started since, just cranks without starting up.

Mechanic has now had it for a week or so, and say they have no clue what is going on with the engine. They have removed the glow plugs and now say that there is zero compression in cylinders 2 and 3, very little in 1 and 4.

Sorry about the length of this post, but please bear with me.

Now, having had a good browse through this fantastic forum. My conclusion so far is - failed DMF, hence no drive to the wheels. But, assuming I'm right about the DMF, why would this cause the engine to die.

The car is serviced regularly, it had the timing belt/chain changed less than twelve months ago by the mechanic that has the car at the mo, and has only done low mileage over the last 3 years (approx. 4k per annum)

The question is, if I'm right about the DMF going - which is bad enough - would/could this cause damage to the engine itself?

Any help/advice that you guys could give would be fantastic.

cheers

Paul

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Hi Paul,

did you find the article on the DMF at http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/102212-dual-mass-flywheels/

I can't imagine that the DMF failure ( and it sounds as though your diagnosis is right ) can be connected with the engine problem as even if the DMF failed in a particularly spectacular fashion it still has the major element of the flywheel between it and the engine. Is it possible that you lost the engine Oil by some means as that is probably the quickest way to finish a diesel engine? Fuel shortage is another possible explanation as is failure of the cambelt. From memory this is an interference engine so a cambelt failure would result in bent valve stems and no/very little compression.

Are you aware that you have a couple of options with the flywheel replacement? You could go for replacement of the DMF or use the considerably less expensive SMF ( Single Mass Flywheel )? The "Blueprint" SMF has got a fair amount of favourable comments on this forum.

Also, have a look at 'tother Paul's ( Denshaw ) postings:

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/153360-breaking/

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Hi Chris

Thanks so much for responding so quickly.

I'm not the best with car mechanics. I can just about perform a basic service - Oil and Oil filter change along with air filter and plugs if petrol engine. beyond that and maybe break pad replacement and I tend to leave everything else to the experts. So forgive me if this is a daft question, but is a cambelt the same thing as a timing belt/chain? If so, I had that replaced less than 12 months ago at the last service.

I didn't notice any engine Oil on the ground at the breakdown area and non on the drive once the car was taken to the workshop.

This could be another daft question. But, would the engine turn over if the cambelt had gone. I ask this because the engine sounded fine when I tested out the DMF failure theory. ie it started up three times for a couple of minutes each time before its quiet death. Just no drive to the wheels when in gear.

Oh and I nearly forgot, there where warning light lit up on the dash when the engine died.

Thanks

Paul

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Hi Chris

Thanks so much for responding so quickly.

I'm not the best with car mechanics. I can just about perform a basic service - oil and oil filter change along with air filter and plugs if petrol engine. beyond that and maybe break pad replacement and I tend to leave everything else to the experts. So forgive me if this is a daft question, but is a cambelt the same thing as a timing belt/chain? If so, I had that replaced less than 12 months ago at the last service.

I didn't notice any engine oil on the ground at the breakdown area and non on the drive once the car was taken to the workshop.

This could be another daft question. But, would the engine turn over if the cambelt had gone. I ask this because the engine sounded fine when I tested out the DMF failure theory. ie it started up three times for a couple of minutes each time before its quiet death. Just no drive to the wheels when in gear.

Oh and I nearly forgot, there where warning light lit up on the dash when the engine died.

Thanks

Paul

Hi Paul,

The lights on the dashboard are "interesting". Will your tame mechanic have an OBD fault reader that he can use to see what the lights mean? Post the result on here and someone ( probably Don ) will know what they mean.

It might well be possible to turn over an engine with bent valves ( I've never had to try fortunately! ), but you should be able to hear the pistons and valves "touching" one another. If you can turn it over with a spanner on the crankshaft nut you would probably have the best chance of hearing/feeling any interference

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Sorry, sorry - my bad. that should have read 'there were no warning lights lit up when the engine died'

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Sorry, sorry - my bad. that should have read 'there were no warning lights lit up when the engine died'

IMHO, it's still worth a look with a fault reader. There might be a clue hat would simplify diagnosis - and it's cheap to do compared with pulling it to bits!

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Thanks mate, I'll contact the mechanic tomorrow and ask if he has had fault reader on it, and if so, what results came back.

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There is a strong link between DMF / clutch failure and engine failure on some cars but not on the Rav. It's possible to turn over an engine when a cambelt has snapped but it's unusual for all cylinders to be affected. The first check is to see if the camshaft is turning when the crankshaft is turned by hand. This will determine whether the cambelt has failed - belts can fail prematurely due to poor fitting, Oil contamination or a poor quality belt.

Compression tests on diesels can give misleading results. If the measurement is made via the glow plug hole - the action of the injector can affect the results. Often pipework and adaptors are used to connect a gauge - this can increase the compression volume significantly giving a false low reading.

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gjnorthall.... Your answers are inspiring just like the ones Don posts !!

Are you a technician by trade .. Daft question really..

I'm curious.. Whats your Christian name and what car do you drive ? Your business of course !

But keep those answers coming.. Even a fikky like me can understand the way you write them..

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For those old enough to remember our knowledgeable friend reminds me of the Lone Ranger.

Folks he helped out used to ask as he rode into the sunset.. 'Who was that masked stranger'.

Will we find out?

Sorry I can't help Paul, hope you get a good outcome.

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My name's Gareth and my background is in garage services. In recent years I've focused on spares and repair of Japanese imports. My interest in Ravs and this forum is that I've had a few of them - basically to get to and from where I live in winter weather. The best was a 4.1 which I imported new from Cyprus and had around 200000 miles on the clock when I sold it - it's still around several years on! As well as general maintenance and repairs, I've rebuilt several diesel engines to date - Ravs that suffered from the Oil burning / head gasket issues but didn't qualify for a Toyota engine replacement. As you can imagine many such cars have been quickly traded in or sold at auction only for the new owner to discover the problem a short time later!

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Thanks for all the advice so far guys. But its looking like my Rav is no more.

Basically, I've just come off the phone with the mechanic and they have confirmed that they have had the car on their fault reader and it did not come up with any fault codes at all :dontgetit: . They are saying that the only way now to ascertain what has happened to the engine is to take the cylinder head off to have a look inside, and that's a 6 hour job.

Would it be an idea to have the vehicle taken in to Mr T's for them to use there kit to diagnose the problem or are they going to have to do the same?

Any further suggestions as to what you would do at this point would be a big help.

Thanks again

Paul

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Before taking expensive steps - it's a reasonably straightforward job to ascertain if the cambelt is intact. The answer will largely dictate the next step.

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Thanks gjnorthall

Is a cambelt the same thing as a timing belt? Sorry, but I'm really am not that good with cars. If it is the same thing, then the mechanic that has the car at the moment, replaced the timing belt less than a year ago.

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Cambelt and timing belt are the same thing. Apparent loss of compression previously described can be attributed to belt failure. Although the belt was changed 12 months ago - can fail prematurely for several reasons. Before doing anything else - it's worth confirming whether or not the belt has failed.

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Thanks again mate.

I'm getting a bit worried now. If I was to take the car away to another mechanic and the cambelt has failed. Do you think it would be completely clear to the new mechanic that that was the problem with the lack of compression/engine damage?

Thanks

Paul

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Thanks again mate.

I'm getting a bit worried now. If I was to take the car away to another mechanic and the cambelt has failed. Do you think it would be completely clear to the new mechanic that that was the problem with the lack of compression/engine damage?

Thanks

Paul

Paul. Just 'chucking' a few ideas around in my head to get you a very experienced opinion from someone I know, first question, whereabouts in Lancashire are you based ?

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Yes - a failed belt would always give concern that other engine damage had ensued as a consequence of the belt failure (there are some engines which would not be damaged as a result of belt failure, but unfortunately your Rav is not one of these). It's relatively easy to determine if the belt has failed and I'm a bit puzzled as to why your current mechanic hasn't checked this out - though, given the background, he's obviously not going to be over the moon if the belt has failed prematurely.

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Thanks again mate.

I'm getting a bit worried now. If I was to take the car away to another mechanic and the cambelt has failed. Do you think it would be completely clear to the new mechanic that that was the problem with the lack of compression/engine damage?

Thanks

Paul

Paul. Just 'chucking' a few ideas around in my head to get you a very experienced opinion from someone I know, first question, whereabouts in Lancashire are you based ?

Hi Paul, I'm in Rossendale mate

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Hi Gjnorthall

That's really useful info. I think I need to get my car away from there asap, and get it to a third party to get it looked at. Thanks again to all of you that have given advice.

Gees, this is a great forum

Paul

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Thanks again mate.

I'm getting a bit worried now. If I was to take the car away to another mechanic and the cambelt has failed. Do you think it would be completely clear to the new mechanic that that was the problem with the lack of compression/engine damage?

Thanks

Paul

Paul. Just 'chucking' a few ideas around in my head to get you a very experienced opinion from someone I know, first question, whereabouts in Lancashire are you based ?

Hi Paul, I'm in Rossendale mate

I have a mate who has an independent garage/bodyshop in Oswaldtwistle which is not that far from you.

If you want another opinion I can PM you his details.

Cheers.

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Hi Paul

Yes please mate.

Thanks again for your help

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It sounds like you may have help close by Paul. Should you need any further opinions I have a pal who has 30 yrs plus experience as a Scania technician, he's meticulous and very knowledgeable on anything diesel powered. Hopefully Daves contact nearby in Oswaldtwistle will help you out.

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Thanks Paul

Sorry, I got you and Dave's names mixed up earlier :oops: in my excitement of getting such great advice from the fantastic people on this forum.

Thanks again guys

Paul

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So many Pauls' in Lancs,easy to get mixed up.

Hope you get sorted Paul.

Paul.

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