An odd one.

[Guest]

2014 Yaris, Multidrive (CVT) 37kmiles, 1.33l running on Shell E10/E5 mix.

Yesterday afternoon, an attempt to start the engine. It turned over and didn't fire in the usual time it takes. Second and subsequent attempts it sounded as though the starter motor turned but didn't engage (clicking and "whirring"). Battery at 12.6v. 

Some hours later tried again. Starter did engage but no start. Eventually started after a long crank. Then started perfectly four times. Roll on to this morning, started as normal (almost instantly), three times, short crank time.

Car did feel as though it was shaking slightly at idle. Then drove perfectly, back home started as usual.

No check engine light after starting, it extinguished, as it should. Plugged in a code reader, all clear, no trouble codes. It's just a code reader (not diagnostic) but does display some data and everything is normal.

Obviously it's not possible to diagnose something that isn't happening but any suggestions would be appreciated as to what might have caused that "glitch" yesterday?

 

[flash22]

Get the Battery tested, a weak Battery will drop its voltage while cranking and make the ecu do strange things (as the current rises, the voltage drops)

fuel pressure is another cause

[Guest]

Thanks Bob. The Battery is less than a year old. I do have a tester though and will check it.

The standing voltage is around 12.6 and 14+ when charging. I initially thought the Battery and tested the voltage with a multimeter.

Unfortunately the code reader, in spite of displaying some live data, doesn't list the fuel pressure.

Typically, all's good at the moment. Starting and running normally. It was just that issue yesterday. Inital thought was new starter but the long crank caused doubts about that.

Fortunately I have At Home, Roadside and National Recovery if neessary.

 

[TonyHSD]

Did you by any chance started the engine for a very short time beforehand?
Like start the engine on cold, move the car to another parking spot and switch it off? 

[Cyker]

I have heard of the Starter motor solenoid getting stuck and requiring a whack from a hammer (Other whacking devices are available) to free it up, but this is on much older cars - I'd be very surprised if a Mk3 would have this problem!!

[Guest]

Update - yes, hitting the starter sometimes encourages the pinnion to engage. I did think of that but the motor is invisible from above and crawling underneath was avoided!

Tony, something like that. As in my original post, I tried to start and it turned over but I suspect I released the key too soon. That depleted the Battery enough to not provide enough to engage the pinnion. Possibly the Battery recovered enogh overnight?

However, after the above ramble, I tested the Battery this morning, it failed with "replace battery". 470CCA battery but only 369CCA was the result. 93% charge but only 69% efficient. Charging test passed. Cranking test failed, voltage dropped to 9.2 volts.

Thursday, when suspecting the battery and it showed 12.6v, I didn't even consider connecting a jump pack or charger.

It's a Bosch battery purchased from a well known battery retailer. I was a bit cheesed off when purchased because, after checking with Bosch, the code I provided showed it was 18 months old last June, when purchased.

There is a "warranty" but the battery has to be returned for them to test and in the meantime, no use of the car. What's the betting they will report it's o.k. and want money to send it out?

I'll suck it up and buy from elsewhere, not Bosch either. Varta I think.

 

 

[TonyHSD]

31 minutes ago, olonas said:

Update - yes, hitting the starter sometimes encourages the pinnion to engage. I did think of that but the motor is invisible from above and crawling underneath was avoided!

Tony, something like that. As in my original post, I tried to start and it turned over but I suspect I released the key too soon. That depleted the battery enough to not provide enough to engage the pinnion. Possibly the battery recovered enogh overnight?

However, after the above ramble, I tested the battery this morning, it failed with "replace battery". 470CCA battery but only 369CCA was the result. 93% charge but only 69% efficient. Charging test passed. Cranking test failed, voltage dropped to 9.2 volts.

Thursday, when suspecting the battery and it showed 12.6v, I didn't even consider connecting a jump pack or charger.

It's a Bosch battery purchased from a well known battery retailer. I was a bit cheesed off when purchased because, after checking with Bosch, the code I provided showed it was 18 months old last June, when purchased.

There is a "warranty" but the battery has to be returned for them to test and in the meantime, no use of the car. What's the betting they will report it's o.k. and want money to send it out?

I'll suck it up and buy from elsewhere, not Bosch either. Varta I think.

 

 

Before you are going through further Battery testing and warranty replacement there is something to think about as it might not be the Battery issue but fuel delivery, one time problem. 
Any car with electronic throttle body and I believe yours it’s too, if you start cold and let the engine running only for a minute or less and switch off then after in the next 1-2 hours you have tried to start again it may not start. 
The reason is because the engine was likely been flooded with fuel.
A sign for that can be also a smell of unburned petrol from exhaust or under bonnet. To prevent that from happening best practice is once you have started the engine let it run until rpm drops to usual RPM for idling and then turn it off. 
This can happen on cars that has dirty throttle body, but also on brand new cars too. 👍

[Cyker]

I wonder, do Bosch have any authorized distributors that can do the test and swap on the Battery to honour the warranty? It would be ridiculous to have to actually send it back to them - I imagine the postage on that would be very high due to the weight!

 

[flash22]

Bosch and Varta are made in the same factory sounds like you just got old stock nothing to do with the brand but the supplier i have had Bosch s3 and s4 batteries last 8-10 years, Toyota batteries are mainly Yuasa and aren't too bad on price

is it the correct Battery for the car ? Does the car have stop/start ? pre- or post-facelift ??

[Guest]

Yes, the correct Battery Bob. Pre facelift and fortunately, not stop start. Yes, their facility is in Spain. Probably slap on different labels on the production line? Manufactured to German standards, say no more! That doesn't guarantee anything.

The original 2014 Battery was Varta brand.

Re sending back, it's really cost and safe packaging that discourages that. The supplier requires the Battery to be returned at buyers cost and risk, for them to test. As I wrote, I'm sure they will find no fault. When I contacted them re the manufacturing date it was ignored. I'm sure they knew about disposing of old stock. Possibly stuff not sold during the lurgi scourge?

Touching a massive plank of wood, there's been no problem since Thursday. 

[flash22]

£15 to send it back, just put that towards a new Battery tbh

[Guest]

Really sorry for bumping this.

Since that initial no start and long crank the following day the engine has been really "lumpy" at idle. I can feel it when stopped and looking at the engine it is shaking slightly.  Runs perfectly well otherwise, and touch wood, has not failed to start or long crank.

The Battery was replaced and an OBD memory saver/12v Battery used during the change.

No check engine light and the only stored codes were for the starting issue.

It just seems strange that it's like this since then. Or maybe it was and I took no notice?

I only have a fairly basic code reader, but it does have a limited live data function. I think it displays fuel trims, not sure about pressure. I don't think it's a misfire. The only thing tried was disconnecting each coil, in turn, which gave the same result of the engine running on three. I have been doing some research and a couple of possible reasons could be a vacuum leak, a fuel system problem (pump, injector) and/or something on the air intake side.

I will probably take it to my trusted garage but would like some ideas before that. Obviously not to tell them their job!

 

[flash22]

If in doubt, disconnect the Battery for 15-20 mins and let everything reset

[TonyHSD]

Throttle body and map/maf sensor check and clean while Battery been disconnected also a good idea. Perhaps it’s an easy job as diy. Only use specialist throttle body cleaner spray and not brake cleaner, they have different chemistry and properties and the later can be harmful for more precise jobs. 👍

[Guest]

Thanks both. I was contemplating disconnecting the Battery for 20 minutes to reset (if in doubt etc. switch it off and on)and hope that might rectify things. Try the cheapest and easiest first. As I wrote, it has only happened, from memory since that original brain !Removed! event (not mine, the car's).

I can't really see how that would have caused a sudden vacuum leak, too much of a coincidence.

I haven't really paid much attention to the location of the throttle body or MAF sensor. Drive by wire so an electric motor driven throttle? I believe opening the throttle disc manually for cleaning is not recommended, i.e. switch on ignition and have someone press the pedal? Specialised cleaner, yes. Also MAF cleaner and care.

The engine air filter and some associated ducting are stupidly positioned underneath the cabin air inlet directly under the windscreen. Changing the air filter requires removal of the engine vanity cover and there's just enough room to remove/replace after unclipping the cover and lifting one end of it!

 

[Guest]

This censoring of words is becoming ridiculous. What's so offensive about one that rhymes with start and begins with "f"?

Tried the Battery negative terminal disconnect for a 20 minute period. No difference other than losing the radio preset stations and the correct time.

Managed to borrow a half decent scanner/diagnostic device. No codes, not even relating to the Battery disconnection. Checked for misfires, non, zero, for all four cylinders, when engine running too. Removed the spark plugs, out of curiosity, all look normal. Long term and short term fuel trims, at idle, don't indicate running lean and excess fuel being added to compensate, e.g. a vacuum leak.

I'll give the M.A.F. sensor a spray when I get some dedicated cleaner. Probably won't do any harm anyway. Really easy to remove. Not even going near the throttle body, too much of a wide screen epic to access and remove!

[Max_Headroom]

14 minutes ago, olonas said:

This censoring of words is becoming ridiculous.

If its anything like the forum i run many words are pre-set its nothing to do with the admin.

On that subject - i hope the admins dont mind  - 

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/

 

 

[bathtub tom]

4 hours ago, olonas said:

This censoring of words is becoming ridiculous.

I've a warning point for inappropriate language. I used the abbreviation RTFM. What's wrong with Read The Flipping Manual?

[flash22]

Your ****** if you live in S$%&^(*)Ihorpe with a Matsu****a radio, or you are having timing issue that are 10 degrees ******** or advanced

[TonyHSD]

The car is very low miles to have any issues related to pretty much all of the above mentioned but in general when throttle body gets covered with black soot the small gap around the plate gets blocked and the engine can’t breathe while at idle and causes rough idle issues and lower rpm and almost never trigger any faults. The MAF sensor on the air filter box, you can try this to clean with correct spray. But throttle body even difficult to get into it in your car it’s still worth trying, at least to remove air intake hose and look at the plate condition. There are videos on YouTube, it might be for 1.5 engines but it will be similar. Some folks does use the ignition on and pressing accelerator to open while cleaning, I always done mine manually without any issues. If you push gently and it moves it’s ok, if it doesn’t and you keep pushing then it might happen a problem and I believe this is how some people get their throttle bodies broken. 
Other option to add some good quality fuel additives into the petrol and take her for a good high speed drive for at least 30-40 min on the motorway with few quick accelerations. These steps sometimes really help a lot, sometimes not. The idea here is to clean fuel injection system with the chemicals and then rise the temperature by the longer run and burn any accumulations along the exhaust system like lambda sensors, cat, silencers etc and the pressure from the brisk acceleration will blow those away and hopefully clean everything. I had done twice successfully with wynns catalytic converter and lambda sensor cleaner. 👍

[Guest]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:42 PM, flash22 said:

Your ****** if you live in S$%&^(*)Ihorpe with a Matsu****a radio, or you are having timing issue that are 10 degrees ******** or advanced

How dare you.

[Guest]

Thanks Tony. Yes, the MAF is easy access/removal. I have MAF cleaner aerosol and intend spraying (very carefully) on Wednesday.

Yes, I believe gently pushing and releasing the throttle flap does no damage.

Go faster Shell hasn't made any difference. I don't like using engine oil or fuel additives, but Redex and Cataclean have been run through the system separately. The car does get a good prolonged 70mph blow out two or three times a week.

No doubt, if all else fails, I'll build up enough enthusiasm to tackle the throttle body.

[Guest]

MAF sensor was totally clean and shiny. No deposits whatsoever on the "wires". I gave it a spray anyway. At idle, fuel trims are hovering around LT -2% and ST +1%, no extra electrical load, aircon and radio off. Air entering the engine 1.8g/s.

Definitely not going anywhere near that throttle body, it's ridiculously buried under a variety of pipes etc. which have to be removed/disconnected to even remove the air intake tube. Whoever designed that lot needs a slap with a wet fish.

 

[flash22]

Possibly fuel related, can you look at the misfire counter ? Do you run it on E5 or E10 ? Do you fill up at the same place ??

 

Where are you located ??

[Rhymes with Paris]

2 hours ago, olonas said:

Whoever designed that lot needs a slap with a wet fish.

Probably sushi.