Advice on a rav4

[jamiem1987]

Hi all just looking for a bit of advice. Currently got a volvo phev (v60 estate) which has been nothing but trouble, a failed motor which needs replacing but is in backorder and no end of engine management lights. My partner has a corolla and it’s been great and with my craving reliability i’m

now looking at a rav4.

Bit if a dilemma, my dealer has a standard awd hybrid in excel trim, and a phev in dynamic trim.

Few questions if anyone would be willing to help!

What would i miss between the excel and dynamic, i’m thinking immediately i’d miss the memory seat function on the dynamic
Does the excel have rear heated seats like the dynamic phev?
I’d be towing a 1500kg caravan with either, assuming the phev will put better with it being more powerful?
What’s the most efficient given high electricity costs at the moment? I’m guessing the phev may be just as costly to run as a standard petrol hybrid at the moment?
Finally both cars i’m looking at have the older tech in them, can anyone comment on the reliability of a wireless carplay adapter as i’d be best using carplay given i’d be losing a lot of tech from the volvo.

Many thanks!!

 

[Oscarmax]

Wireless Carplay and my iPhone 8 don't seem to work well, I use my USB lead.

[Cyker]

If you can charge at home, e.g. driveway/garage, and actually do so every day, then the PHEV will have the edge in 'fuel' costs, but if you need to charge externally there's not much in it at the moment, and I'd lean more toward the HEV as its baseline efficiency is higher than the PHEV. (My Yaris is currently much cheaper to 'fuel' then an EV if only using public charging, but that's a totally different segment to the RAV4)

 

[jamiem1987]

Thanks all for the advice re. running costs, a normal hybrid looks to have a higher towing capacity also. 

[Flatcoat]

Coincidentally I also went from a troublesome V60 D6 PHEV to a RAV PHEV and tow a 1550kg caravan. Charging at home works out about half the equivalent cost of petrol. I never charge away from home. Not worth the hassle. Personally I recommend you go for the PHEV. There are other benefits such as acoustic glazing (which no one seems to refer to) and for towing the power is great. 

[philip42h]

42 minutes ago, jamiem1987 said:

Hi all just looking for a bit of advice. Currently got a volvo phev (v60 estate) which has been nothing but trouble, a failed motor which needs replacing but is in backorder and no end of engine management lights. My partner has a corolla and it’s been great and with my craving reliability i’m now looking at a rav4.

Bit if a dilemma, my dealer has a standard awd hybrid in excel trim, and a phev in dynamic trim.

Few questions if anyone would be willing to help!

1. What would i miss between the excel and dynamic, i’m thinking immediately i’d miss the memory seat function on the dynamic
2. Does the excel have rear heated seats like the dynamic phev?
3. I’d be towing a 1500kg caravan with either, assuming the phev will put better with it being more powerful?
4. What’s the most efficient given high electricity costs at the moment? I’m guessing the phev may be just as costly to run as a standard petrol hybrid at the moment?
5. Finally both cars i’m looking at have the older tech in them, can anyone comment on the reliability of a wireless carplay adapter as i’d be best using carplay given i’d be losing a lot of tech from the volvo.

Many thanks!!

So:

1. Memory seats, heated steering wheel and, if your Excel has JBL, the 360 degree camera. There may be one or two other 'toys'. The PHEV has preheating of the cabin and probably a head-up display.
2. No, it doesn't.
3. On paper, the HEV has a higher towing capacity; in practice it won't make much difference.
4. The PHEV though your benefit will depend on how much use you make of its EV capability.
5. It's going to depend on which year. Corded CarPlay should work well. With a wireless adapter it is going to depend on the adapter.

[Mike2222]

14 hours ago, jamiem1987 said:

What’s the most efficient given high electricity costs at the moment? I’m guessing the phev may be just as costly to run as a standard petrol hybrid at the moment?

You haven't specifically said if both of these options at your dealer are roughly the same price point. Interestingly, with a quick comparison on autotrader with some arbitrary baselines (used approved only, 2022 cars) has the hev excel and the phev design at very similar price points (£37-38k), which I wasn't expecting. If going non-main dealer, you can get an excel hev for £33-34k.

My point was meant to be that unfortunately you can't really justify the money saved from electric miles vs petrol miles as a credible financial argument (unless you're a company car driver). Typically one expects there to be a price jump to the phev, and in the case above of £3-4k ish, then if charging on a standard "price cap" tariff atm (~36p/kwh), and saying hev gets a mpg of ~45 day to day, then at best you're saving 2-2.5p/mile, so you'd need to drive 114000-152000miles on electric before you'd break even in the phev. Phev returns about 3miles/kwh. 

Assuming you charge and drive a full 50 electric miles every weekday and work ~48 weeks a year, it would take you 9-13years to achieve this. 

A better average hev mpg might make the whole exercise redundant, but likewise an off peak electricity tariff might improve your ph-economics, especially if you use a lot of domestic electric, or plan to move to electric domestic heating (eg a heat pump) in the future. 

Declaration of interest - phev owner, and I love it. Phenomenal power/acceleration when wished for, couple with near-silent smooth wafting around for feeling more zen about life. 

14 hours ago, jamiem1987 said:

 

[jamiem1987]

16 minutes ago, Mike2222 said:

 

You haven't specifically said if both of these options at your dealer are roughly the same price point. Interestingly, with a quick comparison on autotrader with some arbitrary baselines (used approved only, 2022 cars) has the hev excel and the phev design at very similar price points (£37-38k), which I wasn't expecting. If going non-main dealer, you can get an excel hev for £33-34k.

 

My point was meant to be that unfortunately you can't really justify the money saved from electric miles vs petrol miles as a credible financial argument (unless you're a company car driver). Typically one expects there to be a price jump to the phev, and in the case above of £3-4k ish, then if charging on a standard "price cap" tariff atm (~36p/kwh), and saying hev gets a mpg of ~45 day to day, then at best you're saving 2-2.5p/mile, so you'd need to drive 114000-152000miles on electric before you'd break even in the phev. Phev returns about 3miles/kwh. 

 

Assuming you charge and drive a full 50 electric miles every weekday and work ~48 weeks a year, it would take you 9-13years to achieve this. 

 

A better average hev mpg might make the whole exercise redundant, but likewise an off peak electricity tariff might improve your ph-economics, especially if you use a lot of domestic electric, or plan to move to electric domestic heating (eg a heat pump) in the future. 

 

Declaration of interest - phev owner, and I love it. Phenomenal power/acceleration when wished for, couple with near-silent smooth wafting around for feeling more zen about life. 

 

Both are around the same price point (main dealer), I feel like they're willing to deal on both cars, I need finance so both coming on similar on the monthlies, the excel is a newer car.

Head says PHEV even if just for the extra power, even though I may never get the savings back, but being a tech geek I think i'd miss the memory seats and other little things the excel has - i'm aware the dynamic phev has electric but not memory seats - annoying!! I wonder if they could be retrofit easily....

Guess I need to go and have a play in both and see which one suits me.

 

Thanks again for the advice... is your PHEV a dynamic? 

[philip42h]

The running cost calculation is complex and really depends on your journey profiles.

The HEV will cost about 15p per mile - you should get around 45 mpg. The PHEV will cost pretty much the same if you never charge it and run it as a hybrid, or when running as a hybrid ...

The PHEV running as an EV will cost you closer to 7p per mile at standard variable energy tariff rates.

So, they will cost about the same when you are dragging the caravan around. The HEV will cost about twice as much as the PHEV for local daily transport.

😉

[NASY]

I think the power advantage of the PHEV should be seriously considered as it is like night and day, plus it is quieter.

[Mike2222]

12 hours ago, philip42h said:

The PHEV running as an EV will cost you closer to 7p per mile at standard variable energy tariff rates.

This is incorrect. Current ofgem price cap puts electricity at 30p/kwh, so you'd need to achieve just shy of 4.3mile/kwh to do 7p miles, and that's essentially Tesla territory with no motorways. I get a fairly consistent average of 3miles/kwh. A little more in summer, a little less in winter, but 2.9-3.0 over the long haul. 

I misspoke earlier as I forgot I was using the economy7 day rate for quoting 36p/kwh. Using 30p, you might break even after 5.5-7ish years, but obviously rates will change. 

12 hours ago, jamiem1987 said:

is your PHEV a dynamic? 

I have what I suspect to be one of the last few Dynamic Premiums that made it out of Japan. I can't really fathom why they binned that trim level, or rather why they haven't brought it back, because sales seemed strong (tho so did sales of everything Rav-based, I guess). I assume lack of parts availability, however the various toys available on the DP spec continued to be available elsewhere in other trims, eg in the HEV lines, so seems confusing. DP has memory seats and heads up display. Wife loves former, I love latter. I would have personally swapped the roof for a 360 parking camera, but couldnt get 360 on any phev at the time, nor heated steering wheel, inexplicably. 

[Cyker]

TBH if the goal is to save money, it never makes sense to buy a new/nearly new car as no car has such low running costs that you'd make it back vs buying some old car with even half the efficiency.

The main benefits are things like day-to-day running costs, improved tech levels and improved reliability.

[philip42h]

8 hours ago, Mike2222 said:

11 hours ago, philip42h said:

The PHEV running as an EV will cost you closer to 7p per mile at standard variable energy tariff rates.

This is incorrect.

Quite so - I've no idea what I was thinking! 😄

At around 31p per kWh and a nominal 3 miles per kWh it comes out at a shade over 10p per mile.

So 2/3 the cost of running on petrol at today's prices. Prices will, of course, change ...

The break-even point will depend on your mileage, journey profile, and the difference in the price you pay for a HEV or a PHEV. When I bought my HEV the difference for a new car was around £10k and I would never have made that back in terms of lower running costs! But things have moved on and folks decisions are often based on what they want and what they can afford rather than the lowest lifetime cost.

[Oscarmax]

I am seeing around 4.4/4.6 miles/kWh at the moment, however it drop for a while when the heater was on to 3 mile/kWh.

We are on on Octopus Flux 17.86 pence @ kWh to charge for us the PHEV make sense.

[Mike2222]

1 hour ago, Oscarmax said:

I am seeing around 4.4/4.6 miles/kWh at the moment, however it drop for a while when the heater was on to 3 mile/kWh.

Not meaning to labour the point, but this seems implausible, unless you happen to live inside a wind vortex and you only ever drive clockwise/counterclockwise, depending on which way the wind is blowing. 

The Rav (and by extension, the Across) is an (almost) 2 tonne brick of a vehicle, and if averaging the efficiency you say, you'd be achieving around 75miles on a charge. I have never heard of anyone on this forum achieving this on the traction Battery alone on a single charge, or even coming anywhere close. I certainly haven't within ~18m of owning. Total electric miles over a long journey maybe, but that's adding in the "ev" miles from the HEV driving sections of the journey, ie the misleadingly named "self charging" hybrid engine. 

[AndyN01]

IMHO the "running costs" comparisons pale into insignificance compared to the quiet, stealthy, but massive cost of depreciation.

And, given that everything we enjoy is becoming outlawed or unfashionable or both I'd be going for the car that's the "best" overall package for you and your needs.

What will have you turning back to look at her when she's parked? Or looking forward to jumping in every time you need to go anywhere?

What "aids" do you require vs ones you would like?

For instance I miss not having memory seats but the overall package is far better for our needs.

Good luck with your search.

Andy.

[Oscarmax]

14 minutes ago, Mike2222 said:

Not meaning to labour the point, but this seems implausible, unless you happen to live inside a wind vortex and you only ever drive clockwise/counterclockwise, depending on which way the wind is blowing. 

 

The Rav (and by extension, the Across) is an (almost) 2 tonne brick of a vehicle, and if averaging the efficiency you say, you'd be achieving around 75miles on a charge. I have never heard of anyone on this forum achieving this on the traction battery alone on a single charge, or even coming anywhere close. I certainly haven't within ~18m of owning. Total electric miles over a long journey maybe, but that's adding in the "ev" miles from the HEV driving sections of the journey, ie the misleadingly named "self charging" hybrid engine. 

So either you are calling me a liar or my screen is displaying the incorrect information, this a new vehicle mileage 371 miles local journeys to date I have used 84.9 kWh and 3.02 litres of E10 petrol. 

[philip42h]

2 minutes ago, Oscarmax said:

... vehicle mileage 371 miles local journeys to date I have used 84.9 kWh and 3.02 litres of E10 petrol. 

I'm not entirely sure where you are taking these figures from, but ...

3.02 litres of E10 at 47 mpg should take you around 31 miles.

Leaving 340 miles completed using 84.9 kWh => 4 miles / kWh which seems plausible for local / urban journeys in the summer.

Though the test sample size is still quite small - it will be interesting to see how it all works out over a whole year. 

[Oscarmax]

As this is a Suzuki it will not allow the vehicle to connect to the MY5 app, at the end of the journey (all local 26 miles at present) the vehicle displays the miles per kWh. I use the Podpoint App to record energy use.

Yes lets see how it works out over the whole year, hopefully better than our 2020 Mitsubishi Outlander 2.4 PHEV.

[Mike2222]

1 hour ago, Oscarmax said:

So either you are calling me a liar or my screen is displaying the incorrect information, this a new vehicle mileage 371 miles local journeys to date I have used 84.9 kWh and 3.02 litres of E10 petrol. 

I'm not making accusations, I'm simply stating that your assertion is contrary to the vast majority of phev owners reported experiences, including my own, and I feel it is implausible as an indication of life with the Rav4 phev. Your profile shows you have a Suzuki Across, which is the essentially same mechanically & aerodynamically. 

The OP is someone with no experience of Rav4 HEV or phev and asking for advice. Your initial statement is misleading because it never mentioned anything about your very small overall mileage.

The instrument panel shows an average/mean of all driving to date. The average (mean) of 50+0.1 is 25.05, whereas (50x100)+0.1 is 49.5

Both can be accurately referred to as an average of total results, but one is far more representative than the other. 

The reportedly most efficient EV currently in circulation (reference - ev-database.com, a widely regarded as consistent/reasonably accurate resource for EV efficiency and range, although as @philip42h has already pointed out, an individual's use case and driving style are the major determinant factors) is tesla model 3 standard range, which in absolute optimal conditions will return 4.3miles/kwh in mixed driving.

It weighs in at just less than a Rav4 (1800ish vs 1900ish kg). I don't know the drag coefficients without looking them up, but I can make a reasonable guess that they're not comparable. 

[Flatcoat]

I have to say extrapolating longer term data from such a small mileage could be misleading. There is also the driver specific factors of weight of right foot and local traffic conditions. Having said that every Road test I have read of an Across OR RAV PHEV have all found the real world BEV range to match the manufacturers claims of circa 47 miles. Very very unusual given how the figures are usually a figment of a computer and simulated use. I found it took me about 1000 miles to get the hang of the best settings and use of my PHEV before I could realistically refer to EV range and mpg. To start with I was allegedly getting over 100mpg…… 

[nlee]

I think it's quite conceivable I could get over 5 miles/kWh. If I drive to work on EV (8 miles from 200m above sea level to virtually sea level) and drive HV on the way back. I'd be bonkers but I reckon I'd easy do it. 😂😂

[Cyker]

Getting anywhere near 4miles/kWh is very impressive - Hardly any current EVs can even get close to that in the real world, and to my knowledge only Hyundai's older models (Original Ioniq and the Kona) were capable of beating that (The Kona could get 5 miles/kWh in summer!)

3miles/kWh is considered good now, with mid-2's considered okay, which is pretty pathetic TBH. They really should be aiming higher - I saw some videos of that VW concept car and it managed to sustain near 10 miles/kWh on a fast road as tested by a bunch of auto journos and youtubers, so settling for 2-2.5 is just not acceptable!

 

[Oscarmax]

6 hours ago, Oscarmax said:

I am seeing around 4.4/4.6 miles/kWh at the moment, however it drop for a while when the heater was on to 3 mile/kWh.

We are on on Octopus Flux 17.86 pence @ kWh to charge for us the PHEV make sense.

I clearly stated I am seeing at the moment, I took this today on my iPhone, I don't expect this to be the average, but is just shows how well the Toyota regenerative  system works.

[Flatcoat]

I suspect that will drop in time. I get upwards of 3.1 in summer always with climate control and sometimes vented seats on. can drop to 2.7 in winter with heating, heated seats, lights, radio etc. however I can rarely bother to hypermile so it is ok for me. I also have grippier all-season tyres than supplied as o/e which will increase rolling resistance a touch. 
 

Off out with the caravan on Wednesday, I will try and record towing mpg.