E-scooters - Government/police action is overdue.

[Haliotis]

Just been reading local BBC News for Leicester.  In recent days, three separate e-scooter accidents reported.   In one, two boys aged 11 and 12 involved in a collision with a car - the 11-year-old seriously injured, and obviously both riding on the e-scooter. The second accident involved a 17-year-old colliding with a car.  The third incident was a 6-year-old boy, accompanied by his father, being hit by a 17-year-old riding an e-scooter on the pavement - the boy of 6 sustaining a fractured skull.  The rider failed to stop but was later identified.

A few days ago, our son saw a woman riding an e-scooter with a child as passenger.  She passed right in front of a police car but the police took no notice.

The government are supposedly carrying out a survey regarding e-scooters - pointless waste of time, in my opinion.

The use of privately owned e-scooters is only permitted on private land, with the landowners’ permission.  But DfT rental e-scooters (like in Derby and Nottingham) are permitted on public roads (not pavements or M-ways), and on cycle lanes.  The stupidity of this is that the users of these are no more safe than the privately-owned ones.

Apart from the dangers to pedestrians, because of riders totally ignoring Highway Code rules, innocent drivers are being involved in accidents and resultant costs (vehicle damage and insurance premium hikes) for incidents that they [the drivers] have not caused.

So, let us have these e-scooters outlawed, the police act positively and with appropriate punishment in the courts if necessary, and get these dangerous e-scooters off our highways NOW! 

[Basil-BarryC]

Agreed, maybe for motorists a Dashcam would be useful in providing evidence in the event of an accident, but for pedestrians there’s little that can be done other than using a mobile phone ( providing the little scroats don’t pinch it when the zoom past you ).
 

The problem locally is not kids but adults with very young children as passengers on e-scooters on the pavements, they don’t stop or give way but expect pedestrians to get out of the way. This despite people shouting “ It’s a footpath the clues in the name”

Eventually pedestrians will be killed, maybe then politicians will wake up !

[Haliotis]

Generally agree with you, Barry.  I believe there has already been at least one death from a pedestrian being hit by an e-scooter.  But it is a dereliction of duty by the politicians if they need actual deaths before taking auction; rather than recognising the obvious.

Kids are also part of the problem, though.  A few in our area are now riding these e-scooters, and not with any regard to road rules, or keeping off the pavements.  One pair of teenagers have been regularly seen to ride ‘tandem’.  The combined weight of the scooter and two riders, even at moderate speeds, is more than enough to cause serious injury or death.  Why are politicians so blind when most people can see the dangers?

[Cyker]

They've left it too late; If they'd gotten a handle on it from the outset, when we were all raising our concerns of the dangers, maybe there'd be a chance, but they ignored it and now it's too late to put the genie back in the bottle now that they are so prevalent. They're basically in the same grey area as cyclists, where they're effectively not subject to any laws because there is no way to identify them in the same way e.g. cars, mopeds, motorcycles etc. are.

The police can't do anything - They've been cut to the bone and they're burnt out enough dealing with more serious crimes. They just don't have the manpower or resources to deal with it now that they're so many of them.

The only ones I've seen them go after are the super high-powered ones; e.g. 2 wheel drive, full suspensions, capable of 40+mph, but they have a hard time catching those if the choose to run so again only the stupid ones will get caught.

I'm also seeing more and more illegal e-bikes on the road - I was on the A10 going north a few days ago, around dusk, and had just hit 40mph when one flew by me like I was standing still, no pedalling needed.

It'll be fun* seeing how this combines with the 20mph zones creeping up on us and all these light-less ID-less hard-to-see scooters and e-bikes will be under and overtaking cars, trucks and busses.

 

 

*And by 'fun' I really mean 'a horrific nightmare'

[Haliotis]

The sad fact is, there will be “accidents” involving these machines where someone dies.  How can the politicians sit back and calmly ignore the situation, knowing deaths are likely to occur?  I’ll tell you why - these NIMBY’s are unlikely to live in environments where they or their loved ones are likely to be affected - so they don’t care.

Sunak’s sudden U-turn to stop or control 20mph limits and other restrictions isn’t driven by thought for the motorist - it is a cynical move solely aimed at trying to save his skin at the 1924 elections.   I am insulted by his thinking that I am that easily led.  Any vote I might give for him has nothing to do with his integrity - it is simply that I would be thinking that the opposing parties are even worse!

[Big_D]

This was posted by @YarisHybrid2016 and sums up exactly what is being said in this thread

BSM saved me the other night. A cyclist on an e-bike passed me at 40 MPH as I pulled out of a junction. He had no lights on, and he zipped behind me. I was going to tuck in close to the curb to avoid a hole in the road when it started flashing. I turned left out of the junction and he came from the right. I didn't see him at all.

e-bikes and e-scooters are downright dangerous

[FROSTYBALLS]

As far as I'm aware, legislation currently only allows the Police to either advise people who ride these in public areas to take them home, or, to report them for having no insurance (£300 fine).

[Cyker]

That's funny as e-scooters are technically illegal so it's not possible to get insurance coverage for using them in public!  

It just shows how inadequate current legislation is that escooters technically require insurance due to being self-propelled, but as they aren't legal you can't get insurance for them, while ebikes can be insured but insurance isn't required as they are classed as bicycles (Albeit with powered assistance   Apparently if they can be self-propelled they're classed as mopeds/motorcycles?!)

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

It isn't illegal to sell them, and it is only illegal to use them in public areas (outside of any Government trials). Electric scooters are classed as a personal light electric vehicle (PLEV), and some companies do offer insurance for them.

[Cyker]

That's what I was saying - Because they're illegal to use in public areas, it isn't possible to get that sort of insurance coverage for them to be used in a public area.

The only insurance you can get covers them for use on private land, which you wouldn't need insurance for anyway, just like it's legal to drive a car without a license or insurance on private land.

 

[Haliotis]

If the government/police/courts can’t cooperate to deal with these menaces on our highways, what chances are there that society in general can be impelled to act lawfully?  The numbers involved in petty crime (some later escalating to more serious crime) are growing yearly and, without robust resources to combat the decline, the UK is likely to develop into a dangerous country in which to reside.  A good example is knife crime, where discussions on TV programmes have confirmed that there is a serious problem, yet none of these panels can agree upon a way to resolve the situation.

[Bper]

In my opinion, crime will continue to rise due to past generational political changes. Politicians introduced policies 20 years ago that have had far reaching consequences for today's generations with little or no thought for the damage they have caused.

Many of the children as they were then are now parents themselves that have grown up with no discipline or respect for others, consequences for their actions almost none existent and peer pressure to be a certain way to fit in was seen as the norm. Parents had little or no control as they were frightened that they would end up in the judicial or social services system for child cruelty if they attempted to discipline them.

The children learnt very quickly from friends their rights and this was used against parents to deter them from taking any action to prevent unwanted or criminal behaviour.

The children of this previous generation had no knowledge how to control behaviour as they didn't have any rules or very little consequences to their own actions themselves.

The judicial system mollycoddles this generation of no fear and how many times have we heard the stock answer of mental health problems as the excuse to detract the public from the root cause created by politicians policies.

Discipline, empathy along with right and wrong no longer feature in many of today's youth culture which is not just sad but potentially dangerous as this will continue heading towards an unrecoverable feral country that was once proud.

And if we think knife crime is bad now, then I think sadly we have seen nothing of what is to come.

 

[Yugguy1970]

I hate to sound Dailymaily but I was watching Strictly last night. 

Shirley one of the judges, she's won more championships than I've had hot dinners and she got annoyed when she was trying to teach a contestant something and the morons in the audience were booing.

Now I know it's all coreographed and forced whooping and booing but it just felt symptomatic of the modern problem of mocking expertise and intelligence.

[Bper]

23 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

I hate to sound Dailymaily but I was watching Strictly last night. 

Shirley one of the judges, she's won more championships than I've had hot dinners and she got annoyed when she was trying to teach a contestant something and the morons in the audience were booing.

Now I know it's all coreographed and forced whooping and booing but it just felt symptomatic of the modern problem of mocking expertise and intelligence.

Absolutely right but I guess it takes two to tango 😂

[Big_D]

I agree with everything @Bper says above. It seems to be a case of naughty, naughty. Don't do that again.

Of course, with no consequences to their actions, they will do it again and it will only get worse.

[Haliotis]

We used to enjoy watching Styrictly, but it’s got too Woke in the last few years.  Probably had its day.

Regarding the booing, the judges are experts in their field, and one would expect them to point out the faults.  Which basically makes the audiences idiots - confirmed by the phone votes that get a useless dancer through, invariably at the expense of someone who could definitely improve.

It used to get me annoyed when the compère said to be sure to vote for your favourite.  It’s a dance competition and, to my mind anyhow, aren’t you supposed to vote for the ones who show the greatest skill, and use the judges’ comments for guidance?  The contestants may say everyone is friendly but, privately, I wonder if they think their hard work is worth the effort?

[Big_D]

But isn’t that the youth of today. They apparently know more than the experts. 
I remember reading an article, a few years ago, where a teenager had come up with a brilliant idea to reduce plastic bottles and carrier bags.
Their idea was quite simple. Use paper bags for groceries instead of carrier bags, and glass bottles instead of plastic ones. Any drink in a glass bottle would incur a 10p surcharge which would be refunded when the bottle was returned to the store to be used again. 
What a great idea. If only we had thought of this years ago, back in the 60s and 70s 😁

[Rhymes with Paris]

53 minutes ago, Big_D said:

But isn’t that the youth of today. They apparently know more than the experts. 
I remember reading an article, a few years ago, where a teenager had come up with a brilliant idea to reduce plastic bottles and carrier bags.
Their idea was quite simple. Use paper bags for groceries instead of carrier bags, and glass bottles instead of plastic ones. Any drink in a glass bottle would incur a 10p surcharge which would be refunded when the bottle was returned to the store to be used again. 
What a great idea. If only we had thought of this years ago, back in the 60s and 70s 😁

Aye, the babycham bottles were the best for hard up kids of the time.

Very tiny, and not much weight to them, and still the same tanner, sixpence,2 and a half p now, that larger heavier bottles had. on deposit.

I am forever grateful to the presumably ladies of the sixties for guzzling babycham in vast amounts.

And grocer's shops that used to wrap cheese and butter in greaseproof paper,no plastic.

 But one must progress with the times and appreciate all these improvements.

[Haliotis]

Glass bottles with a return charge are older than that.  When we were kids, just after the WW2 we used to collect left over beer and other drink bottles that had been discarded but not damaged, and take them back to off licences to collect the deposits. Loose food items in shops were sold in paper bags, paper wrapping or grease proof paper, depending on nature of item.

We did not drop rubbish in the streets or on parks - we either put it in provided bins or took it home to dispose of. It was a kind of discipline that occurred naturally because that was how our elders behaved - there was no need for threats of punishment (authoritarian or parental) - we just naturally respected the environment.  This behaviour has been carried down by our children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren, so where is the difficulty in this being standard practice throughout the human race?

In one employment, we had a production manager who would pick up litter dropped on the factory floor by other employees and drop it in a bin.  One fellow made the mistake of mocking him.  He just said, “If you were brought up to live in ****, that’s your problem - I wasn’t”.   Sums up many of today’s society perfectly, I think.

[Cyker]

The thing is, there is a reason we moved away from glass bottles and paper bags - Paper bags are uselessly fragile and tear easily whereas even the most flimsy plastic bag will stretch before it rips. Plastic bags also require a lot less resources and energy to make than paper bags.

Same with glass - Glass is heavy and fragile, plastic bottles are not.

The change to this stuff didn't just happen on a whim - The reduction of costs and increase of convenience has driven it all; Even plastic-wrap of food - People say it's wasteful, but they don't think about how much food waste it prevents.

That said, I don't know why core charges for stuff, like they do in Europe, isn't a thing here - That would greatly increase recycling if you got money back for things like bottles being returned; As it stands there's no incentive, and it's even penalized - I had a friend who got fine by his council for putting the wrong thing in his recycling bin, so he stopped bothering to even try and just threw everything in the black bin.

There is also a lot of Say One Thing Do Another - One really irritating thing that's happened in one borough I frequent is they paid for an advertising campaign about putting rubbish in bins to keep the borough tidy, but then they took all the street bins away to save costs. You can't make this up

[Bper]

4 minutes ago, Cyker said:

The thing is, there is a reason we moved away from glass bottles and paper bags - Paper bags are uselessly fragile and tear easily whereas even the most flimsy plastic bag will stretch before it rips. Plastic bags also require a lot less resources and energy to make than paper bags.

Same with glass - Glass is heavy and fragile, plastic bottles are not.

The change to this stuff didn't just happen on a whim - The reduction of costs and increase of convenience has driven it all; Even plastic-wrap of food - People say it's wasteful, but they don't think about how much food waste it prevents.

That said, I don't know why core charges for stuff, like they do in Europe, isn't a thing here - That would greatly increase recycling if you got money back for things like bottles being returned; As it stands there's no incentive, and it's even penalized - I had a friend who got fine by his council for putting the wrong thing in his recycling bin, so he stopped bothering to even try and just threw everything in the black bin.

There is also a lot of Say One Thing Do Another - One really irritating thing that's happened in one borough I frequent is they paid for an advertising campaign about putting rubbish in bins to keep the borough tidy, but then they took all the street bins away to save costs. You can't make this up

Wasn't the reason we moved away from using paper bags the impact it was having on cutting down the trees in the Amazon if I remember correctly. Glass will not be used again due to to the cost of energy to make and blow it. I remember talk about a rebate system for empty plastic bottles etc but haven't heard what happened to it since it was first talked about on TV.

As plastic containers have been banned I wonder what fish and chip shops etc will do. Wrapping up in newspaper would probably be a health hazard today. That is of course if anyone can still afford fish and chips.😂

[Cyker]

The best use of glass bottles was with milk deliveries - The bottles just got washed and reused; No need to waste energy melting them down - Recycling uses a lot more energy and resources than just reusing.

I don't know why milk deliveries suddenly took such a nose dive - It was the most popular way to get milk, then it seemed over a year we were suddenly all buying from the supermarket instead!

It's so strange to me as it would be the poster child for ow impact sustainability now - Milk floats all electrically powered, bottles reused with minimal energy cost, direct deliveries etc.

[Haliotis]

As a kid, I was used to the milk being delivered in glass bottles to the doorstep.  Even then, there were downsides. Milk left on the doorstep all day because customers were at work. Milk being stolen from doorsteps. Birds pecking at the bottle-tops, rendering the milk unhygienic. Milk still on the floats until near the end of a round being subject to warmth of the sun on summer days.

How unhygienic is that, compared to delivery in a refrigerated wagon, transferred onto refrigerated supermarket shelves, and then the customer collecting it and taking it straight home to be put in the fridge?

Many methods of packaging various foods have developed through enlightenment about the hazards of food poisoning, and I don’t think the general public would wish to backtrack on those improvements. 

How the reductions in packaging waste is dealt with is dependent on both technology and efficient handling by the recycling industry.  Recycling at the local authority stage is still a haphazard affair and probably not much better further along the line.  When every authority has identical procedures, then perhaps we will start to get somewhere.

[Mjolinor]

Well my milk is still delivered every day in glass bottles to my doorstep. 🙂

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

We had milk delivered up to the early 2000's. What changed for us was that Dairy Crest closed the depot at the end of our road and moved deliveries to another depot 6 miles away. This coincided with the move away from electric milk floats to diesel powered trucks. They then closed that depot and  centralised to one near the centre of the city, which meant milk deliveries changed from being done before 6am to around 11.30am - when we were both at work. Milk got ruined in the summer.

When we had local deliveries, we had real difficulty getting the one milkman to call round for payment. Got to the stage where if we saw him at the top of the road, and our car was outside, we used to open the car door to prevent him getting past on his milk float, and insist on paying him. Whereupon it was obvious he used to make up a figure - always far less than we owed - and that was that for another 2 months or so. 

His excuse for not calling round was that he knew he would always get paid by us, unlike some of his customers!!