Electric cars risk becoming uninsurable

[Yugguy1970]

17 hours ago, yossarian247 said:

Anyone remember this old episode of Top Gear with Chris Goffey spraying petrol and brake fluid onto at a hot exhaust manifold to see if it would catch fire?! Shame he didn't also test it with diesel, but then derv cars were still fairly rare in 1991.

 

 

This makes me think of whenever TG is mentioned on Facebook and someone always puts "It was better with the original 3".

Yes, I loved Rippon, Coyne and Gill too.

[yossarian247]

18 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

This makes me think of whenever TG is mentioned on Facebook and someone always puts "It was better with the original 3".

Yes, I loved Rippon, Coyne and Gill too.

I'm slightly too young to remember the original three. My earliest recollection of Top Gear was Noel Edmonds driving the Fiat Strada and hating it, and driving the first Range Rover diesel and hating that too. (Did he actually like anything he drove?)

[FROSTYBALLS]

Originally a BBC Midlands regional programme - produced by BBC Pebble Mill in Birmingham.

[Haliotis]

Hi Phil,

That doesn’t surprise me.  Even with electrical appliances there is no such thing as 100% efficiency.

I am quite happy with my hybrid and, for various reasons, would never entertain a fully electric vehicle.

[Mojo1010]

Lamp post charge price. If it were 20p or less kw then I would very seriously  consider getting a kona 64 KWH since the prices tanked. 2 lamp post charge points in my road, getting out at midnight twice a week to charge isn't my thing at the moment, plus other cars could occupy those spots so no guarantee. 

[Cyker]

60p?? Is it even a rapid DC charger or just normal slow AC charging??

If it's just AC, that is daylight robbery!!

 

[Mojo1010]

Just 5Kwh charge, the Yaris cost similar to run, so no incentive to go ev .

[mpm235]

On 10/22/2023 at 12:22 PM, Haliotis said:

Has it been established that EVs are more prone to catching fire than ICE cars, and what is specifically the reason for this higher risk?

Does this EV fire risk also apply to hybrid vehicles?  I moved to my first hybrid vehicle earlier this year (2021 Toyota CH-R), and I must say that I like the car and also the economical performance.  But I would be adversely influenced if hybrid cars carried a high fire risk.

It would be in the interests of the EV vehicle manufacturers to be honest with the motoring public, and clearly state the risks, what is being done to remove the risks, and how successful or not their developments have been to date.  They need to remember that such car fires are a real threat to the lives of the occupants.

There is zero risk of your Toyota Hybrid catching fire. Just doesn't happen.They have been around for many years, its never happened.

[Haliotis]

4 hours ago, mpm235 said:

There is zero risk of your Toyota Hybrid catching fire. Just doesn't happen.They have been around for many years, its never happened.

Assuming this statement is factual, that is good news.  However, if insurance companies decided otherwise, could the above statement be authenticated to prevent bumped-up premiums on unproven risks?

[Cyker]

6 hours ago, Mojo1010 said:

Just 5Kwh charge, the Yaris cost similar to run, so no incentive to go ev .

It's not even 3-phase!?  

60p/kWh for single-phase AC is absolutely disgusting! Even the supermarket ones re at least 3-phase. Heck, you can get that for free in most of the libraries around here! (Well, the ones that have car parks and haven't been closed down...)

I wonder why it has two different tariffs anyway - It should be 37p all the time for such rubbish charge power!

[Shared]

19 hours ago, Haliotis said:

Hi Phil,

That doesn’t surprise me.  Even with electrical appliances there is no such thing as 100% efficiency.

I am quite happy with my hybrid and, for various reasons, would never entertain a fully electric vehicle.

That's pretty much the conclusion that Harry Metcalfe reached in the video I watched Albert, and Mr T got an honourable mention at the end, quite an interesting watch if you have a hybrid.

Here's the link if anyone wants to watch, it's a great channel anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUPUlZu0zg0

 

[Mojo1010]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

It's not even 3-phase!?  

60p/kWh for single-phase AC is absolutely disgusting! Even the supermarket ones re at least 3-phase. Heck, you can get that for free in most of the libraries around here! (Well, the ones that have car parks and haven't been closed down...)

I wonder why it has two different tariffs anyway - It should be 37p all the time for such rubbish charge power!

That's council for u, at least around here. Unless some form of company car tax break for having an EV car, zero chance of getting one at these rates. Granted it's higher than normal due to high energy prices. Seen octopus energy offer 7.5-9p at night for 4-6 hours, only this will make sense to get ev. Plug in advance and set timer to start at the low rate. 

Also lamp post charger points are not specifically allocated to EV cars, so anyone can park, access will be troublesome. No home charger, no way switching. Feel bad for people who bought new EV last year at the usual high price. 

 

[SB1500]

Even if it was a diesel or petrol that started the fire, having a few or even one EV catch fire secondarily could still drastically amplify the fire and damage and risk to life in that car park.  
 

Sounds a little bizarre, but if this proves to be a more likely, or more devastating when it does happen, event - I could see electric cars being banned from some car parks who don’t want to shoulder the risk.  

[Cyker]

Unlikely, or they'd have to ban diesel too! Then maybe anything with a big fuel tank. Then maybe SUVs. Who knows where the escalation would go!

But there was already talk about banning EVs from some car parks due to the extra weight!

It's all a bit... sensationalist.

[Haliotis]

Hi Phil,

Have watched Harry Metcalfe’s video - very informative raises a lot of points one might not otherwise be aware of.  For myself, it did confirm that the hybrid route was the best one for me.    The comment about visiting someone’s home for dinner and then asking, “do you mind if I plug my car into your electric?” Is something I hadn’t thought of, and could be embarrassing in some circumstances.

The item about banning EVs from multi-storey car parks due to the extra weight is a bit disconcerting. When designing these structures, one would expect the possible total weight of vehicles in a full car park to have been assessed, and then that weight doubled, or even trebled, to give a safe working load.  Some of that final weight, I would have thought, would be to allow for structural deterioration over time.  Does make you wonder about how much we should trust the design engineers to keep us safe!

[Yugguy1970]

The trouble for EVs is that the government mandating them seems to have magnified the hate, especially as everyone is now a contrarianist. 

There are always going to be few diehard petrolheads, but for most of us I think we'd consider EV if we didn't think it was forced and if the infrastructure was there.  Especially if Toyota really can come good on their promise of plus 500 miles real world range in a few years.

I'm beyond the point where I need Nurburgring cornering or blistering 0-60 so I'd consider an EV if it was as easy to run and reliable as the RAV, but not at the moment.

 

[Shared]

Glad you found it informative Albert, I have to say it's a bit different to "can I plug my phone in please"  I was  shocked at the weight of the new Range Rover, I think we used to have lorries that weighed less than 3 tons, and they were made from girders!

Good question on the design engineers, perhaps we should ask those who came up with the RAAC concrete that's currently condemning schools across the country, let's just hope it wasn't used in multi storey car parks eh.

[SB1500]

19 hours ago, Cyker said:

Unlikely, or they'd have to ban diesel too! Then maybe anything with a big fuel tank. Then maybe SUVs. Who knows where the escalation would go!

But there was already talk about banning EVs from some car parks due to the extra weight!

It's all a bit... sensationalist.

To me, the whole EV thing itself is sensationalist.  I thought the legacy media were very much in favour of EVs as they are a lot of other ineffective modern socio-political ideas they try to force on us. They usually love Greenpeace and were all too happy to share that it voted Toyota the more harmful to the planet automaker 👀🤣

 

I wish there was more calling out of the EV fad but they all seem fairly onboard with the big switch. 

[Shared]

22 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

The trouble for EVs is that the government mandating them seems to have magnified the hate, especially as everyone is now a contrarianist. 

There are always going to be few diehard petrolheads, but for most of us I think we'd consider EV if we didn't think it was forced and if the infrastructure was there.  Especially if Toyota really can come good on their promise of plus 500 miles real world range in a few years.

I'm beyond the point where I need Nurburgring cornering or blistering 0-60 so I'd consider an EV if it was as easy to run and reliable as the RAV, but not at the moment.

 

For me personally the sound of a V8 is full flow is a joy to behold Guy but we have to admit it may soon become a thing of the past, I don't think I'm a contrarian but it seems that whenever Governments mandate things it usually backfires, pardon the pun, smart motorways, smart meters!, heat source pumps and of course "buy a diesel car it's the best thing you can do" (not a mandate I know but hey ho)

 

I'm not against EV's at all but currently they're just not for me even if I could afford one.

Interestingly regarding the bolded comment ..

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-12670963/New-cars-Britons-love-models-owners-regret-buying.html?ico=mol_desktop_home

 

[SB1500]

29 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

I think we'd consider EV if we didn't think it was forced and if the infrastructure was there. 
 

I don’t know, where I live I don’t have a driveway and a cable would have to run across the street… not practical. My whole street with a few exceptions is like that. 

I don’t like having to think of re-energising the car twice as often, be it at the pump or longer. 
 

I don’t like the idea of the Battery failing at 6-7 years and being left with an expensive lawn ornament so to speak that can’t be worked on like an old wore engine could be. 
 

I don’t want to be penalised for using the heater to the max in the cold weather or even having weather make a noticeable impact on “range”. 
 

I don’t want to pay more for a silly crossover until I’m 65+. I want a small city car or large saloon - at NON EV pricing. Certainly not paying Mercedes CLA money for an ‘E Corsa’ 🤢

I don’t see how it helps the planet in the slightest either. Let alone ethical concerns. The two sources of earth materials for them would be exhausted at current production rates just to supply the UK with its EV needs … let alone the world.   Nobody seems to be able to explain that. 
 

also, if I plug it in today, the power comes from a fossil fuel power station. So how is it carbon neutral?  
 

they’re not for the planet.  
 

fun? Maybe. Preference? Sure, free country.  To help the planet?  Nah… not by a long shot. 

29 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

Especially if Toyota really can come good on their promise of plus 500 miles real world range in a few years.

If we do be forced… when my eventual ICE car at the time is ready to die… I’ll go to Toyota if I have to.  They’re the only company that have a solid track record of standing by the customer. At least more than others. 

[SB1500]

2 minutes ago, Shared said:

 

I love when we see things like this.  One VAG car with a set of bumpers as one of the ‘best’ and a near identical VAG car on the ‘worst’ list just with a few different panels / chrome around the air vents haha

 

still, it’s just opinion. And from buyers who are in the new car years.  I reckon 10 year old car surveys are the way to go. You’d get a real picture over the hard to maintain and live with features.  
 

notable that they go after Fiat a lot, because none of the big German brands who usually sponsor car publications and editors, can’t touch its sales in mainland Europe (that and the Panda reign supreme despite being some of the most basic, relatively pricey for what you get, and ancient technology cars you can still buy new).   Consumer choices speak louder than anything and I find it remarkable that so many folks in Europe still love and choose those cars even with more modern ‘better’ cars for the same or less money in the same classes existing. 
 

 

[Barkley]

Funnily enough, I’ve abandoned EV’s having been an advocate of them since 2009, with a Vectrix VX1 Electric Bike, Renault Twizy (like the iQ but the doors and windows were optional), Renault Fluence (a proper saloon, with a swappable Battery pack in the boot - but only in the Netherlands and Israel, followed by my last EV, a BMW i3 non-hybrid.  And I’ve given all this up for an iQ2!

initially finding any insurer was a pain, as you couldn’t answer the question “How many cc’s is the engine”, many refused to quote - but I have to tip the hat to Adrian Flux who not only gave a reasonable quote, but stopped me going prematurely bald!  Now with EV’s in the mainstream, the high cost of replacement has been noticed by insurers and has filtered down to the premiums.  That said though car insurance generally has increased so it’s silly to think only EV drivers are suffering!   
 

A big attraction to EV driving was zero road tax, but this has increasingly been whittled away with tricks and Govt sleight of hand (what a surprise!), so I resisted swapping to an updated EV preferring the iQ, and I’m back in the Nil Road Tax band - it sure feels good!

[Stopeter44]

1 hour ago, SB1500 said:

... and the Panda reign supreme despite being some of the most basic, relatively pricey for what you get, and ancient technology cars you can still buy new

Might be old tech, but they have always been close to the best at optimising interior volume wrt to exterior volume. Amazing what you can get in them. And when the tyres hit the snow, the 4x4 version is really highly rated by their owners.

[SB1500]

2 hours ago, Stopeter44 said:

Might be old tech, but they have always been close to the best at optimising interior volume wrt to exterior volume. Amazing what you can get in them. And when the tyres hit the snow, the 4x4 version is really highly rated by their owners.

I love the Panda. I recently listed my Avensis to go back to a brand new Panda before they end production. But firstly I couldn’t get it sold. Secondly, the low NCAP rating, especially for kids in the back is 16%.  I know the score is mostly tech based these days and the Panda lacks most of it… but I still can’t risk it as its unclear how much is tech and how much is actual bad-place-to-be in crash. 

[Cyker]

The Panda is a funny one - IIRC it went from a 4 star rating to a 0 star rating due to changes in the NCAP tests which made it fall juuust short of each test when it was re-tested under the newer test regime, because it was basically the same car with very few upgrades.

It's still as safe as it was before - You have to be careful with the ratings as they are NOT comparable through the years - For instance the only reason the Yaris has kept such a high rating is because Toyota have been foaming-at-the-mouth rabid about the safety; They've crammed airbags into every available place and always been in the front with adding safety gear as standard, from ABS, TC, and now all the ADAS stuff.

My old 4 star Mk1 would probably also get 0 stars on the new tests!

 

8 hours ago, Haliotis said:

The item about banning EVs from multi-storey car parks due to the extra weight is a bit disconcerting. When designing these structures, one would expect the possible total weight of vehicles in a full car park to have been assessed, and then that weight doubled, or even trebled, to give a safe working load.  Some of that final weight, I would have thought, would be to allow for structural deterioration over time.  Does make you wonder about how much we should trust the design engineers to keep us safe!

The irony is this was brought up before with the increase of diesels, and then SUVs, and back then they were assured there was enough margin built into the structures; It's only now where they're worried a much higher fraction of vehicles will be well over 2+ tons that they're starting to worry!

Remember a lot of those structures were built when everyone was driving cars nearer to a half/quarter ton; Even my Mk4 is the first car I've personally owned that is over a ton dry!

 

5 hours ago, Yugguy1970 said:

The trouble for EVs is that the government mandating them seems to have magnified the hate, especially as everyone is now a contrarianist. 

There are always going to be few diehard petrolheads, but for most of us I think we'd consider EV if we didn't think it was forced and if the infrastructure was there.  Especially if Toyota really can come good on their promise of plus 500 miles real world range in a few years.

I'm beyond the point where I need Nurburgring cornering or blistering 0-60 so I'd consider an EV if it was as easy to run and reliable as the RAV, but not at the moment.

 

Yeah, I brought this up in another thread - It's a very stark contrast to how we were encouraged to buy diesels. More carrot and less stick  -We were shown the advantages, with the low end torque, lower tax and lower fuel consumption and more pleasant power delivery.

And we bought them in droves!

I think that is another reason a lot of people are more resistant to EV uptake - Once bitten, twice shy, for those of us that got stung by the U-turn on diesels and paid for it. The other reason being they're overly expensive and kinda suck  

 

4 hours ago, SB1500 said:

To me, the whole EV thing itself is sensationalist.  I thought the legacy media were very much in favour of EVs as they are a lot of other ineffective modern socio-political ideas they try to force on us. They usually love Greenpeace and were all too happy to share that it voted Toyota the more harmful to the planet automaker 👀🤣

I wish there was more calling out of the EV fad but they all seem fairly onboard with the big switch. 

It's funny how we all see different views - On the rare occasion I look at mainstream media they all seem very critical of EVs now!

 

I do like the idea of EVs but they just aren't ready for the mainstream - They need to have more utility and the infrastructure needs to suck less.

If they can get electricity prices down that would help a lot - A lot of the reason the early adopters got them is because they were practically free to run, but now they can be more expensive than a lot of modern non-EVs!

 

Right now, I think hybrids and PHEVs are where it's at - Toyota's original plan was spot on and I think we'd be in a better place if they'd listened to them.

Their whole plan was a 2-stage transition, with hybrids and PHEVs first getting people used to electrified cars, and getting used to charging them while the kinks get worked out and the charging network is built up, but the powers that be decided to go straight to EV without any thought given to the work needed to get there and now it's all