Gen 3 versus Gen 4, from new owners point of view

[cviclark]

My Toyota's have always had bits that I do not like or defy logic, they appear to redesign every car from scratch throwing out all the good design tweaks  as they go. Rear wipers that park vertical , speedo's that can't be seen or limits not marked. Floors that should be flat but are not. All rear seat swabs should hinge up so when the backs are folded down they provide a bulkhead, or as in the Auris Ts  a proper bulkhead. I still cannot understand  the need for a dividing consul, I would rather a flat floor so I could enter from either side. The old Renault's , SAAB and Peugeot were masters of ingenuity in this respect. 

 I would not buy another car on low profile tyres or without a spare wheel.  I have learned from experience they are not good. So far the only bits I don't like are the white bits inside but after all these years I am confident I can find and modify that. Plywood and carpet and velcro, as used by SAAB can easily  make false floors and keep mats in place. Thankfully I have had a lot of cars so I know what works for me. Why no 16" wheels or rear privacy glass on the Gen 4?

It's worth a bit pain for the smiles Hybrids give me every time drive, but I suspect Marketing think they are more important than engineering. 

[PeteB]

54 minutes ago, cviclark said:

...Plywood and carpet and velcro, as used by SAAB can easily  make false floors ...

The original Gen 1 Prius has a plywood boot floor, which surprised one AA man (who thought I'd had it put in) who changed a wheel for me (Club Toyota used the AA in those days)

[Heidfirst]

1 hour ago, PeteB said:

(Club Toyota used the AA in those days)

They currently still do.

I think that 1 of the reasons for no privacy glass is that many Prius are used for private hire cabs & many councils don't seem to like privacy glass for licencing.

[PeteB]

1 minute ago, Heidfirst said:

They currently still do.

I think that 1 of the reasons for no privacy glass is that many Prius are used for private hire cabs & many councils don't seem to like privacy glass for licencing.

oops - I meant RAC in those days!

[FROSTYBALLS]

6 hours ago, Harters said:

My car is on order for March 1st to ensure I remain in the Zero VED band.

That is assuming the Chancellor makes no changes to the current VED costs.

[Harters]

1 minute ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

That is assuming the Chancellor makes no changes to the current VED costs.

Of course, no one can predict the future 

[kithmo]

6 hours ago, barrycoll said:

Some questions for the cognoscenti, regarding the Gen 4

   Is there a wheel well in the 17" Excel, that the hard fought Space Saver from my Gen 3 17" Spirit would fit.....and does anybody know whether the nut spacers are the same to allow me to use my 17" on a new car and so have a  with a spare.

  Do all 17" options have that black streak down them (WHO thought of THAT?)...can anybody imagine any of the Germans putting a black line on their wheel options to suggest 'sportiness'??

 If a new car is registered before March 30th, does it stay with the old payment system of £0 p.a.???

 

There is a shallow wheel well and threaded hold down bracket on all models, it's just different foam inserts and various other bits with the spare. I just got the 3 foam inserts and wheel and tyre from my dealer FOC as part of the deal as I didn't order the car, I took one they had in stock which had the gunge kit. BTW, The temporary spare wheel is a no cost option on the Toyota "Build your Prius" web site, so if you're ordering one ask the dealer for that option. Some guys in the US (Priuschat) have just cut a hole in the existing gunge kit foam and fitted their temporary spare (I believe the Gen 3 one fits).

Black line is the wheel itself, the silver bits are trims (as mentioned above).

If the car is registered on 31st of march, or before, then it will fall under the current VED scheme, free VED, but it will be a 66 reg instead of a 17. If registered on or after 1st April then for the first year it will be £15 Prius with 15" wheels (70g/km), £90 with 17" wheels (76g/km) and £130 per year thereafter for both.    

[PeteB]

4 minutes ago, kithmo said:

... BTW, The temporary spare wheel is a no cost option on the Toyota "Build your Prius" web site,..

I think the space saver is only an option (free as you say) on the Bus Plus and Excel IF you specify 15" wheels (for which you get a £400 rebate).  Unless it's changed, I don't think you get the choice if you have 17" wheels on those models, but the dealer may come to an arrangement if you're lucky.

[Harters]

10 minutes ago, kithmo said:

If the car is registered on 31st of march, or before, then it will fall under the current VED scheme, free VED, but it will be a 66 reg instead of a 17. If registered on or after 1st April then for the first year it will be £15 Prius with 15" wheels (70g/km), £90 with 17" wheels (76g/km) and £130 per year thereafter.    

New 17 registration is from 1st of March, so as long as its registered before the 1st April it will be VED £0 and a 17 plate.

The VED on or after 1st April is actually £140 for any car that is not Zero Emissions, plus a extra £310 on top for 5 years for any cars over £40,000.  This is after the 1st years small fee.  The 5 year supplement even applies to EV's over £40,000 e.g Tesla

[barrycoll]

Wow, it seems that there is quite a lot of 'thoughts' on 2017 VED possiblities.....but brains have been stretched, so thats good

So any vehicle between March 1st and the 31st 2017, gets a 17 plate AND £0 payment ad infinitum (or write-off), and a Gen 4 Plug In when it arrives, after April 1st, despite its clean credentials will be £140pa post year One.

I too have always wondered why 16" Prius rims have never been an option or original fitment as they are on the Auris.

Its a great pity that Mr T. didnt use the job lot, black wheel paint on his white sanitary ware instead, and maybe use the very plain, Gen 3 17" wheel design which is seriously easy-clean, on the Gen4.

So it seems like my 17" Gen 3 Space saver would fit in the Gen 4 wheel well, as outside circumference must be the same as the 15".

Do people think that it is too late to place an order and get a March delivery???

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

1 hour ago, barrycoll said:

So any vehicle between March 1st and the 31st 2017, gets a 17 plate AND £0 payment ad infinitum (or write-off), and a Gen 4 Plug In when it arrives, after April 1st, despite its clean credentials will be £140pa post year One.

This has been highlighted a few times before on TOC.

However, the Chancellor could raise VED rates for the current system in next weeks budget, and given the UK's under achievement on reducing pollution, problems with NO2 levels, etc, this could be a real possibility.

It is possible the zero VED rate may disappoear.

[PeteB]

1 hour ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

... given the UK's under achievement on reducing pollution, problems with NO2 levels, etc, this could be a real possibility.

It is possible the zero VED rate may disappoear.

Not to mention recently losing their third court case over it! (although that's a lot to do with catastrophic performance regarding NOx emissions, which the VED system has made much worse over the last 15 years or so).

But it does seem asinine to me to charge the same VED for all cars except pure electric (with a break point on list price, still not favouring cleaner vehicles) regardless of whether they are the best or the worst polluters, given that many are unable to consider electric due to cost and/or ability to recharge at home.

[Heidfirst]

because so many new cars were emitting less & less CO2 the Treasury was seeing VED receipts rapidly dwindle. Imo this change is more about recovering VED funds than pollution.

[PeteB]

11 hours ago, Heidfirst said:

because so many new cars were emitting less & less CO2 the Treasury was seeing VED receipts rapidly dwindle. Imo this change is more about recovering VED funds than pollution.

Fair point, but they could still have a tiered system as now that favours cleaner vehicles and raise more revenue at the same time.

Arguably, NOx emissions are a more immediate issue and they are killing tens of thousands and causing health problems for unknown numbers of others in the UK alone right now. 

The tiered system over the last 15 years or so have had an illogical influence on the number of people buying diesel cars, with the proportion on the road going from sub 10% to over 60% in recent times.  The saving is only about the same as a couple of tanks of fuel, but people happily spend over £1,000 extra for a diesel model when their driving patterns do not suit that type of engine.  Not only to they risk clogging up the Exhaust Gas Recycling valve and particulate filters with possible huge maintenance bills, but the antipollution equipment largely doesn't work until the system has warmed up.

I did once work out for a couple of friends (well, they were until I told them how much money they'd wasted!) how much extra they'd spent buying a diesel version, dearer servicing and likely lower resale value after 3 years.  Also at the time diesel fuel was more expensive and because of their short journeys we worked out their mpg was actually worse than with the previous petrol version (1½ litre class cars).  One was over £1,000 a year worse off, the other £1,500 a year!  (even with £35-90 a year VED saving).

Boris Johnson and the current London Mayor are trying to convince the government to introduce a "scrappage" scheme for all pre EURO 6 diesels (that is most made before 2014) because of the horrific health problems the NOx gases cause.  Most towns and cities have NOx pollution levels that are illegal in most parts of the world, and it's a risk that's affecting almost very person lin the developed world.

You may recall Paris a year or two back reach such a serious level they had to bans 50% of vehicles each day for a month (using the first odd/even numeral in the registration).  Most UK large towns and cities should be doing it almost all the time, if health of the populace was more of a priority.

I wonder how much it costs the NHS!

[barrycoll]

The slow evolution to now, difficult diesels, has taken quite a few years Pete.

When I bought my first new B reg VW diesel in 84, that fuel was ,like Hybrids are now, (as mentioned previously) the Great Untold Secret. Bullet  proof mechanical injection, and able to travel from Dover to the Pyrenees on one tankful. The Europeans had been driving diesels for years while enjoying very low cost fuel, great mpg, and lots of low down torque, but Brits were still enthralled to the 2 litre or bigger, petrol engines.

 Every Euro taxi was a base model Merc diesel probably travelling the sort of miles that Prius drivers achieve now...or maybe more.

 It is hard to say whether the hybrid will finally capture the buying habits of Europe the way that diesel has done, but when driving down to Spain in a verywell laden Gen 3, and stopping for lunch in an appallingly busy French Motorway services, I always find that I am in a minority of one.

 

[kithmo]

19 hours ago, Harters said:

New 17 registration is from 1st of March, so as long as its registered before the 1st April it will be VED £0 and a 17 plate.

The VED on or after 1st April is actually £140 for any car that is not Zero Emissions, plus a extra £310 on top for 5 years for any cars over £40,000.  This is after the 1st years small fee.  The 5 year supplement even applies to EV's over £40,000 e.g Tesla

Yes, you're correct, I was confusing the new reg start date with the new VED start date. The Prius is classified as an "Alternative fuel" vehicle on the V5, so is £130 per year from year 2 on not £140. 

[PeteB]

1 hour ago, barrycoll said:

...It is hard to say whether the hybrid will finally capture the buying habits of Europe the way that diesel has done, but when driving down to Spain in a verywell laden Gen 3, and stopping for lunch in an appallingly busy French Motorway services, I always find that I am in a minority of one.

... with bikes on the back and a box on the roof, presumably! 

Interestingly (to me at any rate), one of my Spanish friends who lives in Ibiza has recently bought an Auris Hybrid!

[Heidfirst]

4 hours ago, PeteB said:

The tiered system over the last 15 years or so have had an illogical influence on the number of people buying diesel cars, with the proportion on the road going from sub 10% to over 60% in recent times.  The saving is only about the same as a couple of tanks of fuel, but people happily spend over £1,000 extra for a diesel model when their driving patterns do not suit that type of engine.  Not only to they risk clogging up the Exhaust Gas Recycling valve and particulate filters with possible huge maintenance bills, but the antipollution equipment largely doesn't work until the system has warmed up.

I did once work out for a couple of friends (well, they were until I told them how much money they'd wasted!) how much extra they'd spent buying a diesel version, dearer servicing and likely lower resale value after 3 years.  Also at the time diesel fuel was more expensive and because of their short journeys we worked out their mpg was actually worse than with the previous petrol version (1½ litre class cars).  One was over £1,000 a year worse off, the other £1,500 a year!  (even with £35-90 a year VED saving).

Not so sure about that in general. Yes, diesels cost more but they also (at least up until very recently, not sure what the current situation is) kept their value better.

I only do about 8,000 miles p.a. but when I bought this car (s/h in late 2013) the projected residuals & fuel saving equalled or beat the cost of running a similar age/mileage 1.8TR (what I originally went out to buy) despite the higher initial cost. I also saved ~£30 p.a. on VED which was neither here nor there - it would have been ~£130 with a 2.0 D4D.

Similarly it's only recently (~2009/2010) that DPFs have become a major issue because most diesels weren't fitted with one until then. You could probably write a (short) book on the whole issue of people buying diesels for inappropriate use. 

[PeteB]

3 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

Not so sure about that in general. Yes, diesels cost more but they also (at least up until very recently, not sure what the current situation is) kept their value better...

I did the sums for my friends about 6 or 7 years ago; one was for a Corsa - it was £1,000 more for the diesel version, and it was worth nearly £1,000 less after three years.  Services were also dearer - I think this was because of more frequent filter or maybe oil changes.   And because it general only did ½ mile to 3 mile journeys, it was getting worse mpg than a 2 litre auto petrol Vauxhall Cavalier I had in the 1990s!

A friend has just bought a diesel Skoda Octavia, primarily because it was in the showroom with the equipment he wanted and he'd have waited 2-3 months for a factory order.  He normally only does 3,000 miles a year and was getting worse mpg than his last petrol version, even with a 6-speed gearbox!

As you say, the VED should be insignificant in the overall scheme of things, but many people seem disproportionately swayed by it.

[Harters]

57 minutes ago, kithmo said:

.... The Prius is classified as an "Alternative fuel" vehicle on the V5, so is £130 per year from year 2 on not £140. 

Interesting, I didn't know that. 

[Heidfirst]

10 minutes ago, PeteB said:

A friend has just bought a diesel Skoda Octavia, primarily because it was in the showroom with the equipment he wanted and he'd have waited 2-3 months for a factory order.  He normally only does 3,000 miles a year and was getting worse mpg than his last petrol version, even with a 6-speed gearbox!

Unless those are all long trips then clearly not the right engine for the mileage & he can look forward to DPF problems ...

[PeteB]

Just now, Heidfirst said:

Unless those are all long trips then clearly not the right engine for the mileage & he can look forward to DPF problems ...

Yup - he'd committed before I broke the bad news to him!  and probably EGR problems too!

He does very few long trips apart from once or twice a year, and a couple of 17 mile each way trips a month.

His dealer told him to go for a burn-up every time the MIL light (amber engine shaped engine management system warning light) comes on! (until it goes out).  Having rattled him, he's now making unnecessary journeys to give it a run! - brilliant!

[cviclark]

If, like me, you feel you are the only one who knows just how good Hybrids are tell the world. I was told, when I bought my Gen2 it was slow, boring, and lacked character. I thought great. Far more practicle than my Lexus IS, in practise just as quick, far more economical.  The Gen 3 was quicker but I never liked the interior, I felt hemmed in and trapped.  The Auris TS is the best auto small estate I tested, and I tested all I could find. It could be really great but for the stupid marketing mistakes that are a feature of Toyota GB. The colour of the face lifted one are dire, the Gen 4 Prius not much better. Yes there are many diesels that can match the mpg, but not auto,s used on short runs day in day out. The problem is those marketing and selling Hybrids have little or no experience  of owning a large range of cars. 

[PeteB]

8 minutes ago, cviclark said:

... The problem is those marketing and selling Hybrids have little or no experience  of owning a large range of cars. 

Really?  I'm not sure they even drive! 

[PeteB]

Good news for some - I looked inside a darkish blue Prius in the showroom today while my car had its first service (and the park brake recall) - the so called sanitary ware was black (centre console, at least - the bits in the steering wheel and by the transmission selector were still white.