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Worried About Toyota's Quality And Torque Of 1.8 Hybrid


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Hi all,

At the moment, I'm planning to swap my car around summer for either a Honda Civic 1.8 aut (9 gen) or an Auris 1.8 (new gen). My questions are:

The hybrid drivetrain has to sources of power: the combustion engine and the electric motor. However, comparing the Auris to the Civic, the Civic's 1.8 has more torque, actually, I'm surprised that the Hybrid 1.8 has so little torque as stated in the specs sheet. The Civic 1.8 is a good engine but I will not be willing to except less torque than what is provides (174 NM at 4,400 rpm) is a Toyota Hybrid.

So, now my question is: Does one ALWAS have the torque from the electric motor on tap? I'm thinking that on highways the electric motor does not help the car along (hence no torque from it) Will one really have to settle for the torque provided solely by the Atkinson engine then?

Naturally, the hybrid provides better mpg but what is IN FACT realistic to expect from it? The EU mix is nowhere near achievable with normal driving style, is it? While the Civic "only" had an avvarage of 41.5 mpg, this is actually pretty close to the EU mix and with a bit of practice it is well know that with a Honda, it is actually quite easy to exceed the official figure of 44 mpg.

Also, I really think Toyota's quality is going downhill. They've had WAY to many recalls recently. Doubting their quality abit now (and I used to think very highly of Toyota). Buying a brand new Auris Hybrid is summer is asking for recalls, I guess.

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You need to read up on hybrids my friend.

Hybrid uses a different kind of engine to the Civic.

Atkinson cycle - Civic is Otto cycle. Your comparing Apples with Oranges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle

As to real MPG I refer you to the fuelly website. http://www.fuelly.com/ or http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/

As to quality......thats rather subjective. I have have read around and Toyota seem to me to be better than a lot of other manufacturers. Pays your money and takes your choice...or pay more to get a Rolls?

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Have you still not made a purchase Nicolai? You have posted up just about every Japanese car in the past and tried to make comparisons with various Toyota Hybrids............I can feel my troll hackles working. This conversation has been had before

Kingo :thumbsup:

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Have you still not made a purchase Nicolai? You have posted up just about every Japanese car in the past and tried to make comparisons with various Toyota Hybrids............I can feel my troll hackles working. This conversation has been had before

Kingo :thumbsup:

Greetings Kingo,

No, I still haven't made a purchase as the car has to be aproved as a car for disabled driver by my municipality (a rather long, beucratic process, I'm afraid). No trolling intended at all, I asure you.

I have spent my timne testing the Yaris Hybrid, The Auris Hybrid (current vers.), the Civic and the Subaru Legacy. Right now it is between the Honda or the Auris.

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The VOSA site lists 287 recalls entries for Honda in the last 10 years and 297 for Toyota; and the latter sell a lot more and have a wider range in UK

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Torque? The Honda civic diesel has more low to mid range torque, the honda civic petrol has more top range torque and the hybrids have more low down torque due to their DC motor.All you have to do is make up your mind where you would like the torque to be and buy accordingly.

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So, the torque of the electric motor only noticed when starting up, right? The minute you go more than 50 km/h, the electric motor is disengaged. So I guess the torque from it driving on A roads will be zero, right? And then you only have the torque of the Atkinson?

I guess, what I'm after is: which car will feel more powerfull? The Civic or the new Auris? And why is the 1.8 "only" 136 BHP when the Atkinson is 99 and the electric motor is 80 BHP. The torque of the electric is 207 NM and 142 for the Atkinson, however, just adding these numbers doesn't give the correct idea of how powerfull, the car is, does it?

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No, the electric system is quite clever; The atkinson engine indeed has very little torque but this is because it doesn't need it; If any torque is required the electric motor supplies it. The electric motor doesn't only work at low speeds.

Here's a slightly simplified scenario of how it'd go:

Say, on a motorway, you are cruising at 60mph: The atkinson engine will be doing pretty much all the work at this point.

You see a truck ahead and want to overtake so you put your foot down - They hybrid system notices this and knows the atkinson engine is too gutless to do it on its own, so it engages the electric motor, which has lots of torque, to give that extra push and WOOSH! off you go :)

There are downsides in this; If the Battery is very low the car becomes very horrible to drive if any torque demands are placed on it because it can't draw on the electric motor, but it works great in stop-start traffic and when cruising with bursts of overtaking.

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I'm not sure why you are interested in the torque figures. If you are assuming that the torque is effectively a measure of the car's acceleration ability I'm afraid it's not that simple. The drive train used in the Prius/Auris hybrids delivers the power from the engine to a CVT gearbox and at any instant may be driving the wheels, charging the Battery, doing both together or neither.

The power required at the wheels is requested by the accelerator pedal and the hybrid system controls then decide whether to get the power from the engine or Battery or both. If you floor the accelerator the engine will run at peak power output and the CVT will deliver that power plus full output from the Battery to deliver maximum power to the wheels. This is why a Prius can beat most conventional cars in the dash from a standing start. Hope that has clarified things a little and not confused you even more.

The Prius has enough power to cruise comfortable at the maximum French speed limit of 130kph but at that speed of course you won't be getting excellent fuel consumption. I haven't tried to find what the maximum speed of the Prius is but I will admit that I have occasionally taken my eye off the speedo and found that I was doing well over 140kph and still accelerating.

You also ask what contribution the Battery makes on the highway. I have occasionally watched the power flow diagram whilst driving along empty motorways and been surprised to find how much use is made of the Battery. The obvious use is when the Battery is charged as you go down a hill and then helps to drive the car as you go up the next hill. Also, when driving along an apparently flat road the Battery was continuously being charged and discharged in response to small changes in the road and, I assume, wind direction.

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Exactly talk about torque numbers is pointless.

Look at the 0 to 60mph time (or the 50 to 70) which gives you much more of a handle on how it drives.

Or better still go drive it yourself.

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I have driven the Auris HSD.

So, if the truck is there and my batteries are depleted, I cannot overtake or I will just overtake VERY slowly?

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I have, the problem is: i test drove the Civic yesterday, whilst the Auris HSD test drive took place in summer. I remember the HSD as being "OK" performance wise but I focused all my energy on getting good mpg. Test driving the Yaris HSD later and being more used to HSD, I "only" managed to get 65 mpg with an avarage speed of 50 km/h.

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So, if the truck is there and my batteries are depleted, I cannot overtake or I will just overtake VERY slowly?

Absolutely NOT.

1 The management computer ensures that you NEVER EVER go below two Battery bars (so your NEVER EVER out of leccy) and similarly the computer ensures that you don't have too much leccy either only going over 80 /90% on rare occasions in specific circumstances. Basically it's a forget about it the computer ALWAYS has your back situation.

.

2 In your scenario you'll be doing say 50mph before wanting to overtake the truck (which is limited to 56mph anyway) ? Well there you are you'd be charging the Battery beforehand anyway. So your 'issue' would NEVER happen.

Really it's VERY smart indeed.

And again regarding the real world MPG I point you to the TWO links I posted earlier.

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Really it's VERY smart indeed.

^^^ that ^^^

Before deciding to go for a Yaris hybrid, I spent a bit of time reading about Toyota's HSD, the CVT gearbox and everything else that makes a hybrid work - just to have at least *some* understanding - conclusion: all clever stuff with (almost) a sprinkling of magic on top :P

I've had the car for just over 3 weeks, and I'm perfectly happy with it. My previous car was a 1.6 petrol 206 so yes the Yaris has less power but I haven't once thought "OMFG this is taking forever" yet.

Edit: that was quite a helpful article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive

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Besides the Torygraphs HJ's review, All I read up on was the MPG, 0 to 60 and the tax band. Then I drove it.

It already ticked the boxes regarding equipment and physical size (fits my garage).

The CVT wasn't an issue for me. I also own (from new) a 2003 2.5Ltre Xtrail (running LPG) which has a CVT box. The Nissan Note I traded for the Yaris was also an auto (running on LPG). A tad less nippy than my Note but 36 months and with my mileage it was the right time to chop it in. I do 18 to 20K a year. Nearly 4K on the Yaris now and I only had it 7th Sept.

I can drive stick (and I also have a Class A bike licence) but my wife doesn't do manuals anymore so that does influence my choice a lot.

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Ffs Nicolai... Just go and buy a Prius.

I, like others on here have had both the gen2 1.5 and the gen3 1.8, I now have the Yaris HSD.

I have NEVER had problems overtaking anything, from tractors on country roads, to cars travelling below the speed limit on motorways. None of the 3 HSD's that I've had have ever had any problems accellerating away from lights.

As far as reliability is concerned, I've hadmToyotas for over 25 years and only ever once have I had a complaint, and that was when the dealer put the number plate at the front on crooked!

When did you last see a Toyota waiting for a breakdown truck apart from punctures??

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I think some confusion has occurred over the past few weeks(months?) concerning what the driver sees on the display about the HV Battery SOC (State of Charge) and these lower and upper limits of ~40% and ~80%.

The ~40% and ~80% values are internal to the Hybrid system and by keeping the HV Battery SOC between these limits, it enabled the engineers to design a HV Battery that could last the life time of the car (or approx 10 years?).

What the driver sees on the display shouldn't be confused with the limits mentioned above as the bars have no numbers next to them. As Toyota are unlikely to give away too many secrets, it's likely that those figures were worked out by experimentation, measurement and the odd hint from Toyota (perhaps a technical overview to interested individuals?).

http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/Image:Index.55.jpg

What is the explanation for the HV Battery never being empty or full from the drivers point of view? The answer, is that the Hybrid system doesn't know whether the driver is about to demand more power than the petrol engine can provide (e.g. accelerate to over-take or maintain the speed going up a hill), or if the car is just about to go down a hill and needs the room in the HV Battery to store some of the energy that can be recovered in regenerative braking (or slowing down).

There are extreme circumstances such as driving up a mountain or driving in EV mode until the system reaches the lower limit were Nicholai's fear can come true and the Hybrid can only use the gutless petrol engine. :canadian:

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There are extreme circumstances such as driving up a mountain or driving in EV mode until the system reaches the lower limit were Nicholai's fear can come true and the Hybrid can only use the gutless petrol engine. :canadian:

Agreed with you until the last paragraph. I've driven up mountains and occasionally used EV to exhaustion but never noticed any difference in the power available. I can only imagine it happening if you had foot hard down for a very long time.

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Thanks all,

Well, I won't be getting the Prius (too expensive in Denmark unfortunately). I'm planning to get the new Auris tourer when it comes out (if my municipality has approved another purchase by then).

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well.... driving in Eco mode and keeping in Eco for the whole time, I have seen lots of frustrated people on my back or side. However, press the power button, and off I go with ease :)

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Agreed with you until the last paragraph. I've driven up mountains and occasionally used EV to exhaustion but never noticed any difference in the power available. I can only imagine it happening if you had foot hard down for a very long time.

I've never done it myself - anyway I don't think we've got any real mountains in the UK. I remember reading about it on PriusChat, someone had their foot down going up a mountain for miles, and then needed to overtake a truck and discovered the car had nothing left. Had they gone up at a more relaxed pace then it wouldn't have been a problem.

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