Space Saver Spare

[Sagitar]

I gave details of my space saver earlier, but I will repeat here with other relevant data.

The car was supplied with summer tyres on 17" wheels - The tyres are 215/45 and the etyres calculator shows them as having an outside diameter (when new) of 24.62 inches or 625 mm.

I bought winter tyres on 15 inch wheels in exactly the same size as Toyota supply as an alternative to the 17 inch wheels above. The tyres are 195/65 and the etyres calculator shows them as having an outside diameter (when new) of 24.98 inches or 634 mm.

The spacesaver supplied with the car has a 135/80 tyre on a 16 inch steel wheel. The etyres calculator shows it as having an outside diameter (when new) of 24.5 inches or 622 mm.

The normal recommendation when changing tyre size/profile etc is to keep within a tolerance of plus or minus 2.5%.

The spacesaver is 1.93% smaller than the 15 inch set up and 0.48% smaller than the 17 inch setup. The numbers get closer with tyre wear.

You could get closer to the 15 inch setup by going to a 135/85 tyre, but the one I have is near enough for me . . . . . .

[wass]

I have been amazed that some people who i would have regarded as quite well informed just go to pieces when it comes to working out the overall circumference of wheel/ tyre combinations. My ex boss was very seriously into rallying and he used to phone me up at home at the week ends to ask me whether such and such a tyre and wheel fitment would gear up his car or gear it down. I think Sagitars comments are a very good guide to those who remain mystified. Perhaps it pays to listen to the maths teacher a bit better?

[kithmo]

just to get my head straight about the availability and sizing of a new space saver, you wouldn't believe the faff that Jemca the local Toy delaer is making over the sizing of the wheel for this car

because the car is listed on their data base as a solar roof model, and so not having a space saver, the bloke behind the counter is having a nervous breakdown...

he didn't seem to realise that it is basically a T Spirit with 17" rims, but he came back with a size of 135X70X17" as the space saver, which looks a bit ridiculous to me

the local motor factor has some used wheels in stock with a size of 125 x 70 x16

so who is correct here????????.....if I order a new wheel from Toy Town, and it doesn't fit, its my problem apparently and they wont take it back....amazing

The standard spacesaver in mine is 135/80 16R which is 24.44" OD, almost the same as the one your dealer quoted at 135/70 17R, which is 24.5". The 17" alloys on the car are 24.6"" OD, The 125/70 16R one is only 22.9" 1.6" too small. This difference could cause problems with the traction and stability control system as well as the handling. If you can't get a second hand 135/80 16R or a 135/70 17R then I'd buy a new one.

[Mkuk0]

Just checked the space saver on my 15 inch wheeled T3 of 4 week old vintage and it also has 135x 80 x 16 tyre on it. So it does seem as its the same wheel/tyre combination for both 15" and 17" clad cars.

[barrycoll]

I can't thank you guys enough for taking the time to check out your wheel/tyre space saver combo's....

but you wouldn't believe the response by any main agent that I phone for a simple 135 80 16, as they are all committed to knowing the reg number, and then all come back with the same response...

e.g................."the computer says NO, there is no tyre for this particular car"

so I say that is only a basic T Spirit which happens to have a sun roof, but 17" rims, but they cannot get past the computer/reg number....and cannot tell me the difference between my car and anon sunroof model

the supplying dealer has only suggested a full size 17" alloy spare with a budget tyre for £340 +vat!!.....and no room for it either!!!

this business is doing my head in, as the yoof of today are wont to say....

cheers

[barrycoll]

just out of interest sagitar, as you have both 15s and 17" wheels, although with different rubber, is there any material difference in the ride and noise qualities of the 2 sizes...

the smaller tire has quite a bit more rubber between you and the road, but I hope you say that there ISN'T much difference, and then I won't feel to bad about accepting a car with uncalled for 17s

cheers barrycoll

[Sagitar]

Why don't you try asking for one for a 2010 TSpirit?

[Sagitar]

just out of interest sagitar, as you have both 15s and 17" wheels, although with different rubber, is there any material difference in the ride and noise qualities of the 2 sizes...

the smaller tire has quite a bit more rubber between you and the road, but I hope you say that there ISN'T much difference, and then I won't feel to bad about accepting a car with uncalled for 17s

cheers barrycoll

I prefer the appearance of the 17" wheels. The 15s are a bit noisier, but then they are entirely different tyres. The ride is a bit harsher on the 17s and I like the idea of having the rims further away from the kerb on the 15s. I think the 17s feel a bit more secure at high speed in the wet, but again I think that is the tyre and for the gentle way that I drive I am happy on either of them.

The tyres are of course very different. The 17s are Michelin Pilot Primacies meant essentially for summer driving, while the 15s are Continental Winter Contact TS830s meant only for winter driving.

If I could have only one wheel size it would be the 15s.

[johalareewi]

Why don't you try asking for one for a 2010 TSpirit?

I think he has tried.

but you wouldn't believe the response by any main agent that I phone for a simple 135 80 16, as they are all committed to knowing the reg number, and then all come back with the same response...

[PeteB]

My experience has been that standard T3s on standard tyres ride slightly quieter and softer than T4/Spirits on standard tyres (but still not as comfortable as the original 200-2003 "Classic" Prius, which has the most comfortable seats too IMHO). Handling is still way above what I'm ever likely to need in all but the direst emergency manoeuvre.

I would expect Winter tyres to be noisier than summer/all weather equivalents.

barrycoll: do you ever go anywhere near Norwich or are you desperate enough to pay for courier delivery? I can put you in touch with my contact there whose well used to doing what's actually asked for (he fitted the cruise control switches to both my Classic Prius, a Gen 2 T3 and my current Gen 3 T3 when other dealers said it couldn't be done). He quoted me £378.10 for a full size 15" alloy and tyre to match those on my car, but I didn't take him up on it when I checked whether it would fit under the boot floor. Once I get nearer to my mammoth Europe trips, I'll have another look at how possible/practical/expensive it would be to find someone who could modify the under-boot trays to make it fit.

Regards, PeteB

[PeteB]

My experience has been that standard T3s on standard tyres ride slightly quieter and softer than T4/Spirits on standard tyres

I meant to add that this is not my only reason for liking them: Toyota spent hundreds of thousands if not millions honing the Drag Coefficient down from a brilliant 0.26 on the Gen 2 Prius to a fantastic 0.25 on a Gen 3 with 15" wheels. I'm not sure if it's the extra weight or wider profile that does the most damage, but Gen 3s with 17" wheels go back to 0.27 - WORSE than the old car, and harmful to the mpg too.

I'm not sure about the Gen 3 Prius, but when I looked at the Yaris Hybrid, the turning circle went up from 30 feet to 36 feet on the T4/Spirit with larger wheels!

On top of that, I kept my 2nd Classic Prius 9 years and did nearly 160,000 miles. During that time, I spent just over £1,000 on tyres (mostly at a very good price from my Toyota dealer!) - I did just over 50,000 miles in a firm's Gen 2 Prius (all Gen 2s came with 16"), and they didn't seem to last any longer that the 14" ones on a Classic, but they were more than twice the price - I would have spent almost £2,400 on tyres on a Gen 2 over the same distance! That was one extra holiday thank you very much!

Regards, PeteB

[barrycoll]

blimey Pete, you have put some serious miles into Mr T's products, and it sounds like you must know your way around the various models, better than most people... I hate to be nosey (but!), were the big miles part of your job description???

its an interesting concept, that with the passing the various Prius generations, useability and efficiency have deteriorated, but according to a Toy salesperson, the Gen 2 with 15" rims did not have any showroom 'presence', whereas the new car on bigger rims is an easier sale...

I suppose that I could have rejected the new car, when I saw that it was on 17 wheels, but that would have opened a can of worms, as we had travelled up from London to Yorkshire to pick up the car, and just maybe Toyota have changed the spec for 2013, and that is just how they come now, despite the description in the 2013 brochure

as for the deteriorating drag coefficient, I imagine that the curve of inefficiency rises above 60mph, but is less intrusive below that speed....I have been meaning to check the recorded speed with a GPS speed to see whether there is a 10% over reading, but generally the car is always going faster than it feels that it is (if you get my drift)

and thanks for the mention of your very helpful all purpose mechanic as a back stop for my space saver problem.......

BUT, I can report that a very small Toy authorised service place in Hampstead called Twin Spark Motors, has cut through the bull-sh+t, and is going to get me a 135 80 16 wheel and tire for the piffling sum of £161...complete with centre clamp to hold it in situ...so the trip down to Spain next month is now less problematic...

this garage is the reason that I ordered a Prius in the first place, as they have been servicing a second hand IQ that we bought, and painlessly (for me) replaced a problem EGR valve under warranty,eventhough it was well out of warranty....the cost to Toyota was £1,345 !

next week a a Thule tow bar hitch will be fitted to carry a bike rack, for our 2 hybrid electric bikes, and that will be IT expense wise, I hope

so now that I have sorted the tire problem, and mentally decided to not to dwell on the ride/noise levels, I can start to worry about the pain the bum that seat inflicts after a couple of hours....this seems to be a big topic in PriusChat, which one New Zealander has solved with sheeps skin seat covers!

all the best barrycoll

[johalareewi]

If you do need to use the space saver spare, you will have the problem of what to do with the wheel you have taken off. Sure you can put it in the boot where the spare came from, but you can't put the tray back properly, which means you can't put the rear floor back properly, which becomes a problem if you are carrying luggage for a holiday...

Also carry a rubber mallet with the spare tyre toolkit so you can get the alloy wheel off. They tend to stick and can need some help to become unstuck.

[PeteB]

blimey Pete, you have put some serious miles into Mr T's products, and it sounds like you must know your way around the various models, better than most people... I hate to be nosey (but!), were the big miles part of your job description???

Until 2 years ago, my trip to work was about 37 miles each way. Add in at least one monthly trip from Luton to Norfolk to see my Mum (about 300 miles over a weekend), the occasional touring holiday (Scotland twice, Isle of Man) and a few business trips soon add up.

In 2006, I took a change from my IT career and joined two ex-Solicitors setting up a London minicab firm (greentomatocars) using the Prius. For the first year I was a minicab driver (and did 46,000 miles in their 2006 T3, another 7,000 in my Classic, and a few thousand in various other cars!). After that I was their Fleet Manager until 2 years ago when health and family circumstance saw me moving to Norfolk to care for my 95 year old mother. I still work for them from home.

Whilst I have certainly learned a lot in some ¼ million miles in Hybrids (mostly Prius, but some Hondas [Civic & Insight] and Lexus (LS & RX), plus Auris and Yaris Hybrids), it never ceases to amaze me when I learn something new. There are some real experts on the various Groups (one guy on the Prius-UK Yahoo group buys old Prius, renovates them (including rebuilding Battery packs!) and sells them, and his knowledge in encyclopedic) [he bought my 2nd Classic with 163k on the clock!].

Speedo error: Another Prius owner on the Toyota Prius Yahoo group (some 14,000 members world wide last time I looked) found an EC directive from the 1990s that made it compulsory for cars sold in the EU to have over-reading speedos and lays down a formula. Mine are generally 7-8% fast. On the Classic it was possible to use a special sequence of switches and screen touches to call up a maintenance screen, which displays a very accurate speed. The built in SatNav on my Gen 3 T3 also knows the correct speed, as the speed limit warning occurs at the real speed, not that used by the speedometer. If you buy a Prius in the US you will find it's speedo shows an accurate reading.

Seats: I find the seats stay comfortable for me, but it took a while to find my ideal set up (but then I'm well padded!). I must say I still think the Gen 1 Classic Prius has the most comfortable seats and ride, the Gen 2 the worst, and the Gen 3 nearly as good, but everyone is different in this respect. Having said the Gen 2 was the least comfortable doesn't mean I thought it UNcomfortable, just not as good as the other versions - in my year mini-cabbing I spent up to 15 hours a day in my 'office', and whilst always glad to stretch my legs when the opportunity arose, it says something. That said, my ex-partner had an Aygo until last year and, amazingly, that (IMHO) had the most comfortable seats of any car I've driven, including the £90,000 Lexus LS Hybrid!

If you do go for seat covers, make sure they don't interfere with the side airbags.

Regards, PeteB

[PeteB]

If you do need to use the space saver spare, you will have the problem of what to do with the wheel you have taken off. Sure you can put it in the boot where the spare came from, but you can't put the tray back properly, which means you can't put the rear floor back properly, which becomes a problem if you are carrying luggage for a holiday...

It is a problem, but not as much as some cars and certainly possible to live with for a day or two until the damaged tyre is repaired or replaced. A flat tyre causes less of an issue than trying to store an inflated one under there.

In the good old days, the spare tyre was on a tray on the underside of the boot. When required, you used the starting handle to wind the tray down and reveal the spare. We do seem to go backwards in so many ways.

Regards, Pete

[barrycoll]

As Pete has said, carrying the defunct flat 17, is less of a problem than getting mobile again after a flat tire. It certainly won't fit in the wheel well, but my wife could always hold it in her lap, so no problem really.

I take your point about the rubber mallet, johal, but that may be more relevant after a period of oxidation of different metals. Honest John, writing in the Telegraph, has suggested jacking the car, removing the wheel nuts, and then dropping the car gently back to slowly take the weight, and break any bonding..............or, a rubber mallet.

as a retirement job, I worked for a company called www.ecurie25.com and my job was to deliver and pick up their fleet of supercars, such as Ferrari, Lambo, Aston, Porsche etc etc..

on one occasion I was unlucky enough to have a flat tire in a Maserati GTS, and of course, no spare, just a spray can....after jacking the car, I tried to fill the !Removed! tire about 3 times, once with the stuff in the boot, and then 2 more cans from a local garage...........stuff went everywhere, including out through the hole in the tire, but no inflation would hold.....and then I( had to wait hours until a covered transporter had been sent, as the car had to be recovered without being seen!

Your driving history is amazing Pete, and your acquired knowledge of hybrid must be very deep. I am sure Priuschat of USA would like to dip into your well of info

But even with a gun to my head, I am not sure that 15 hours in the driving seat would have been possible.

Your comments on car comfort are interesting, especially the Aygo, but as you say, comfort is a very individual concept, and what works for one, doesn't for another.

cheers barrycoll

[Sagitar]

I have never found any difficulty in removing an alloy, but I do swap my wheels twice a year and I always clean the wheels carefully when I take them off and before I store them. I do keep an extending breaker bar in the car to avoid problems in loosening wheel nuts and whenever anyone else works on my wheels (annual service for example) I loosen the nuts and re-torque them carefully. A puncture on a dark night in heavy rain is no time to discover that someone has over-torqued the wheel nuts with a power tool to the point where I can't shift them.

[johalareewi]

A puncture on a dark night in heavy rain...

That's when I had mine (without a rubber mallet) :D

Toyota Rescue can come in very handy.

Another handy tip is to have a look under the car in daylight so you know where the jacking points are.

Not so easy to do in the dark when it is raining.

[barrycoll]

what you are really saying alan, is to get familiar with your new car while the birds are singing, and the sun is shining, and not to finally make a start when the house is on fire...

when I pick up my new Space saver from Twin Spark motors, my plan is as you describe, eg give it the once over...

I imagine (because I havn't pulled everything out and looked), that the emergency repair kit, is held into the wheel well with a threaded system which will then hold the spare tire in place?

what I do with the emergency system is then my call, I suppose I could put it on eBay, for the same price as my spare!

cheers barrycoll

[johalareewi]

With the space saver spare, will you also get the toolkit (jack, spanner, etc.)?

I guess that the emergency repair kit doesn't have this?

[Chippy01]

After reading about no spare in the Gen III Prius, I dropped into my loocal Toyota outlet over the weekend.

In the window was a brand new €33,500 Prius Luxury, supposedly the top spec here, and with 17" alloys on each corner, it must have been.

Seeing as I know the guys in there, I had a nose around.

In the boot, under the floor tray was a spacesaver spare. When I mentioned that I heard about new Prii being sold with a repair kit instead of a spare (of sorts), they said that they've never heard of that one.

I guess if you're gonna pay over 33 big ones, you'd expect a spare (of sorts) ................ lol!!!

[PeteB]

Hi Chippy01

We're talking about the UK spec T-Spirit with Solar roof option and the UK Prius Plug-in, which don't have a spare - the Plug-in has no room under the boot floor for one.

At the moment other UK spec Prius do have a space saver, but watch this space! The latest Auris just has a can or repair sealant across the range.

BTW barrycol: it occurs to me that maybe you car originally came with 15" wheel, but as they know you wouldn't be coming back to them maybe the did a swap with another customer who was buying a T4/Spirit and wanted 15" wheels? Some may think this sounds silly, but quite a few people on the Yahoo groups have said they would have liked to swap.

In fact, given how many people like one or the other, I'm amazed Toyota haven't found a way of making it optional on all models. How hard can it be?

Regards, PeteB

[barrycoll]

interesting posts, Alan and Pete....

the car did come with a jack and tools in the 'empty' wheel well.....and they all look a bit lonely!...maybe one is supposed to take the weight off the flat tyre before using the can of sealant?

and an interesting thought about my wheels Pete, although the dealer was very much a jobsworth, in that the purchase transaction had to be completed, before he was prepared to countenance looking for a spare wheel.....all about the EU and homologation so the chances of him doing an 'illegal' wheel switch, sounds remote (but not impossible)....

...after all, I could have rejected the car, as I considered that 15s were really part of the reasons for buying...then he would have been stuck with an illegal spec car...

the thing that makes it sound sort of genuine is that the V5 came with a 92 grm CO2, as per a non sunroof , big wheeled car...if it would have been fiddled with, the V5 that goes with that VIN number would have said 89 grm

cheers barrycoll

[PeteB]

the thing that makes it sound sort of genuine is that the V5 came with a 92 grm CO2, as per a non sunroof , big wheeled car...if it would have been fiddled with, the V5 that goes with that VIN number would have said 89 grm

cheers barrycoll

Hi Barrycol - I think you're right in that case - the CO2 figure clinches it, as long as a sunroof model isn't meant to be 92 even with 15" wheels due to the extra weight and possibly different drag factor caused by the different roof-line (not sure if it makes a difference or not).

[Sagitar]

Has anybody actually managed to resource a space-saver for a PiP and if so, would you mind telling me how?

My wife and I have decided to take an extended motoring holiday and having read the range of gunge horror stories we agreed that it was worth buying a space saver for peace of mind even though storing it in the car will be a bit of a nuisance.

Though there is no skinny listed for the PiP, the space saver supplied for the T-Spirit that I owned before my PiP would appear to be a fit for it. My strongest personal evidence for this belief is that all through last winter I drove the PiP on a set of spare wheels that I bought for for the T-Spirit. They fitted the PiP perfectly. And as far as I can discover, the standard fifteen inch wheels supplied for the PiP are identical to fifteen inch wheels supplied for the T-Spirit. If anyone has definitive information that shows that the T-Spirit skinny will not fit the PiP it would be very helpful to see it.

Getting my hands on the skinny that I want has proved difficult. Two approaches to Toyota dealers have produced virtually the same answer. "There is no skinny listed for the PiP and they cannot therefore supply one for use with it".

Both advised strongly against trying to use the T-Spirit skinny with the PiP, but neither offered any technical evidence for their advice. One advised that I should obtain a full-szed spare and since I already have four spares with winter tyres fitted, that would be a solution of a sort, but storing a full sized tyre in the car is an unpalatable prospect.

I have looked for suitable used space-savers without success and I can continue to search but I am running out of time.

So, back to my original question. Any help would be gratefully received.