Toyota Safety Sense

[timspud]

1 hour ago, Terry Parrott said:

I would never start to carry out any modification to a car still under warranty. But I have several serious issues here. 1) For the 2nd time in just 2 years, Toyota will not come clean when there is an issue nor do they notify customers. My previous Auris had misting up headlamps, and it took me weeks to get Toyota to admit they had a batch manufacturing problem. 2) Toyota peddle TSS as a safety system, and hence it should not be for customers to struggle only in desperation to visit their dealer to find out there is a fix.  Toyota and more so the dealer should be offering up the fix for anyone who wants it. Much better customer service. 3) It patently obvious that the current TSS underwent very little testing. Just a few hours in a cold chamber would have shown the issue. Or maybe Toyota new and just ignored it? 4) Toyota knew when they delivered my car that they had an issue with TSS, but did not install the fix on my car before I took delivery.

Overall its a shambles!

well said Terry

[FROSTYBALLS]

At the end of the day no-one knows whether either Toyota GB or Toyota Ireland even visit this forum, let alone read any threads.

They certainly won't reply to any posts on this forum. So if you wish Toyota GB and Toyota Ireland to be aware of your concerns, and possibly do anything about your concerns, your comments need to be directed to them, either via their main website, or, in Toyota GB's case on their blog - http://blog.toyota.co.uk

 

[Terry Parrott]

I'm one step ahead. I have already emailed Toyota GB's CEO Paul Vanderburgh, received a response from his team and have an open case number. They have all the details of my dissatisfaction and in fact they have offered to refund the £450 I paid for the TSS option. My problem is that if I accept the refund Toyota GB will argue that since I haven't paid for the TSS option it doesn't matter if it doesn't work. If they have offered a refund Toyota GB must know that they can't really fix the issue. I would then be left driving a car with a myriad of alarms and beeps and a TSS system that doesn't work.

This is why I have told both Toyota GB and the dealer that under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA) I am still with the initial 6 months period and so can reject the car. The CRA states that a buyer must allow the seller one attempt to rectify the problem after which if the fault is still present the product can be rejected. They will probably argue that the handbook has lots of words around when the TSS system may not work correctly. The problem is that an owner doesn't receive the handbook until after purchase and there are not operational restriction within the Toyota TSS sales blurb which is all one can see before car handover. If there are limitations to TSS operation that should be within the sales literature.

Though I'm retired now I used to be a Project Director, so I know my way around contract Terms and Conditions.

[HARDO421]

Good evening everyone

I did post on this at the start and I have just been reading all the comments.

I take delivery of the 2017 verso on Wednesday with TSS does anyone know if the mods will already be installed?

Thanks 

[Terry Parrott]

It would be anyone's guess but I bet £10 it isn't!

[HARDO421]

Hi Terry

I like your comments.

I agree that the TSS has been a shambles from the start but I do like the idea of the system.

I personally know a few services managers and sales managers in the toyota group and when questioned on the new fix they all say it looks like it has fixed the problem.

But the way toyota dealt with this issue is terrible by trying to suggest there is no fault. I think if they spent more time on testing the product first than trying to rush it on every model would have been a better bet.

[timspud]

1 hour ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

At the end of the day no-one knows whether either Toyota GB or Toyota Ireland even visit this forum, let alone read any threads.

They certainly won't reply to any posts on this forum. So if you wish Toyota GB and Toyota Ireland to be aware of your concerns, and possibly do anything about your concerns, your comments need to be directed to them, either via their main website, or, in Toyota GB's case on their blog - http://blog.toyota.co.uk

 

i have it in writing from Toyota Ireland that it doesnt work and they are working on fix from Toyota Europe

[FROSTYBALLS]

2 minutes ago, timspud said:

i have it in writing from Toyota Ireland that it doesnt work and they are working on fix from Toyota Europe

In which case you've taken it as far as you currently can with Toyota Ireland.

[cobh18]

The question, timspud,  is what is "it"?  Can't imagine the Irish dealers are using a homegrown version. They must all come from Toyota Europe, and may have different versions for different/more extreme climates. However, without nomenclature we are none the wiser. 

The German Auris club show that they too have had trouble, but there are indications that the latest fix is more effective. Whatever it is:)  

Over 200 posts. I've not succeeded in identifying whether there is a TSB number or a recall by Toyota Gmbh. A search in German rather than Google pidgin might help. My German is too elementary for this task! https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=de&u=http://www.auris-forum.de/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D56%26t%3D6281%26start%3D0&usg=ALkJrhiJXt1Lz9iM7tYg4njFUsaf6NisVw

 

Haven't used Tinyurl deliberately, as there are malign codes in some renditions….

 

The "disc"in the leader is Google rendition of "Scheibe" which I think means screen. 

[cobh18]

So, a little research on Toyota Service Information reveals some TSB files, available for a fee. BE-0071T-1016 updated 15/11/16, is the same one referenced in the Finnish TSB.

TSB1.tiff

TSBsubs.tiff

[Martin23]

I have been experiencing this problem with my March 2016 Avensis Tourer.  It went back to the dealer in late December 2016 for the heat pad fix, which did not do anything to resolve the problem.  The day after the fix the problem recurred and I called the dealer's aftersales manager who basically tried to bullsh*t me that I was the only person whose car continued to have the problem after the fix.  He advised me to keep a log which I have done.  The log (taken over 3 weeks) shows that, for me, the problem only occurs at night, and only when dry (except one occasion when it was foggy) so I do wonder if the poblem is not related only to condensation in the sensor pod but is a software bug also.

I took my car in yesterday and one of the service techs told me Toyoya's advice is now: for the heater to be constantly on, constantly set to 22 degrees, constantly pointed at the screen and to have aircon constantly on.  This is patently ludicrous advice and renders the heating system unfit for the purpose of heating the car and the passengers and seems to be a panic measure given I am reliably told by a Toyota salesperson that this problem effects most of the 2016 cars on the road fitted with the safety sense system (so as well as Auris and Avensis, also Verso, RAV4 etc.) and is becoming something of a major issue, especially for their PR.

In my view the continued malfunctioning system is very dangerous  as it represents a significant distraction - especially at night when the yellow flashing light is particulary bright and I suppose even a fix by Toyota that simply stops the message appearing would be sufficient for me - the car is as good as the 2011 one I drove for 4.5 years and quite frankly I have never been enamoured by auto-wipers, lights, dip etc and the only valuable extra I've found is the speed limit detectore but I can happily do without that.

I have told the dealership in writing and verbally - and no uncertain (but very polite) terms - that if they cannot fix it (either by a real fix or the software stopping the warnings appearing) then I do not want the car and in that case will be negotiating for them to buy the car back from me at its current sale value.

[Terry Parrott]

My car was in the dealership today, it had the heater element fitted and the software flash upgraded. My car was the 1st my dealer had completed. I will be out for a drive tomorrow so will report back later tomorrow on how TSS now performs.

Today I also got a call today from Toyota GB's Head of Quality. A summary of the call is as follows:

1) The poor performance of TSS is a known problem across the EU and further a field.

2) Only a few cars have had the mod completed across the UK, so Toyota GB is awaiting feedback form customers and dealers.

3) There is a top level meeting this month in Norway and Germany and the performance of TSS is one of the topics to be discussed.

4) I got the impression that the current fix is only a first step towards making TSS work properley

5) I agreed to feed back on how my car performs with the current modifications.

The CEO of Toyota UK is Paul Vanderburgh. His email address is easy to find on-line but it is paul.vanderburgh@tgb.toyota.co.uk. If we all keep emailing him maybe something will happen.

[Makokk]

I'm very glad I found you. At least I know that I'm not the only one with these problems. I bought my toyota auris in Sept 2015 so I don't know what I could possibly do anymore.. Unfortunately I was not as quick thinking as you when the problems started, which was pretty much as soon as I bought it and got completely played by my dealer 😔

This was my first "brand new car",  I thought it was time to "invest in a good car" and I didn't really know what to do when the problems started apart from letting them know. I told them as soon as the warnings started that the safety sensors were malfunctioning and was told that as the system was new toyota were investigating the issue and I would be contacted in time. I told them that I did not want to be stuck with a problematic car and wanted to know my options as I would rather change the vehicle instead. I was told that because they did not had a chance to fix it yet I would have to wait until toyota had come up with a solution. I was told I had no other option. No one thought to mention the 6 month rule and to ask in writing. Little did I know at the time they were just exploiting my good faith and just buying time. Unfortunately while there were plenty of phone calls, like I said I did not think at the time to put it in writing (I kick myself about it now).

It took apprx 4 months for them to take it in and when that failed they took the car for a few days to drive around to see what the problem was only to be told that they didn't get any malfunctions despite the fact I was getting them pretty much constantly.. I was asked to keep driving it and report to them when it happens, to pull over and take pictures etc. The 6 months went without any singificant improvement and here I am a year later with the same problems. The last time they checked it I was told that because it wasn't a current (!) problem - as it doesn't do it all the time but only some times and therefore I am not allowed to have a replacement sensor since all the other fixes have failed. I had the other fix as well, the one that masks the problem only so that it just doesn't flash when it is not working.

All in all I am very disappointed with my dealer, toyota and myself, boy good faith costs a lot these days. You would think I had £22000 lying around so I should not be upset that my car is faulty.. 😔 I need to contact them again to get it booked it but it is just such a nuisence..

Having said that has any of you had an experience of the pre-collision system, not the warning but the car actually breaking before impact? 

Maria

[cobh18]

The "latest" technical safety bulletin BE-0071T-1016  TS  is dated 15.11.16. Has your dealer applied the (many!) steps in that? Presumably not. 

 

 

[Makokk]

They last had it on the 24th of October. They kept it for the day. So maybe not? I'll email them again and see what happens. I think if this doesn't get resolved there will be a point that surely we'll be asked to pay for repairs once out of warranty. And is there a difference in warranty if the fault is in electronics compared to the warranty for parts?

[FROSTYBALLS]

1 hour ago, Makokk said:

I was told that because they did not had a chance to fix it yet I would have to wait until toyota had come up with a solution. I was told I had no other option. No one thought to mention the 6 month rule and to ask in writing. Little did I know at the time they were just exploiting my good faith and just buying time. Unfortunately while there were plenty of phone calls, like I said I did not think at the time to put it in writing (I kick myself about it now).

I would suggest that no retailer would mention to a customer what their rights are under either the Sale of Goods Act 1979 or the Supply of Goods Implied Terms Act 1973 (applicable if bought using hire purchase), which were the pieces of legislation that would cover your purchase (the Consumer Rights Act 2015 came into effect after your purchase - 1st October 2015).

[Makokk]

I spoke with solicitors from Which (they offer free legal advice if you are a member) who said that I should report them to the Obundsman for this and create a case against them as they are certainly not allowed to be misleading customers. They have laws that they need to abide as well. They said while I would have a better case if I had put things in writing but it's not all lost as the obundsman at trading standards could force them to settle IF they are found to have acted with the purpose to make me loose my right to return or replace the vehicle.. it would be a very long process but still.. looking back to it the knew pretty early there was an issue a year later they still have not resolve it. 

 

Has anyone had an experience with the pre-collision safety system (apart from flashing when the vehicle in front is turning)? I have once on the motorway.. there was quite a bit of traffic so the distances between cars were far less what they should be, I was on the fast lane doing 70ish when everyone just slammed their breaks. Before I could react the hazard lights were flashing and the break petal moved away from my foot which reminded me that I should be breaking now.. the car was already stopping by the time I hit the breaks. It all happened really fast, in seconds so I'm not sure how much was from the car or from me.. I told my at the mechanic at my last service and he sounded surprised it worked?!

[Terry Parrott]

Well my car was in the dealers on 10th and it had the TSB work completed, so an extra heating element fitted and some new software. I'm sorry to say that the TSS system is still not fit for purpose. I don't seem to get as much misting up so the heater element seems to be working, but the big issue is that there are no alarms any more.

So with a windscreen covered with thick ice, or yesterday snow, there are no dashboard alarms to show that the system cannot be working. How Toyota GB thinks that its acceptable to "mask" alarms on what they claim is a safety critical system is beyond me.

So In my eyes the TSS system is still not working and I will be rejecting the car.

[Makokk]

I find that when it is not working the automatic headlights is not working either and that's how I was checking if they were working or not when they did something and was not getting the warnings anymore several half a year ago. We installed this for a very specific purpose in order to have a certain safety benefit that can be critical in the event of a collision. So perhaps they want to avoid any potential legal action in the event there is a collision and the system was malfunctioning? It is unacceptable they are doing this, we paid for this and at the end of the day if it is not working I want another car. Surely it would be illegal to remove warnings for a failing safety system? 

[Terry Parrott]

Here is my response that I have sent to Toyota GB this morning:

Well my car was in the dealership on 10^th January for the TSS TSB work to be carried out. Having had the work carried out the TSS system is still far from “fit for purpose”.

All the new software does is “mask” any alarms. So taking the last two mornings as an example, with a windscreen covered with either thick ice or yesterday at least 1cm of snow, there are no TSS alarms on the dashboard – see attached picture taken this morning BEFORE I cleared the screen of ice.

So all the new software does is “inhibit” any alarms or warning lights from the TSS system on the dashboard. How Toyota GB thinks that it is a good thing or acceptable to inhibit alarms from what you claim is a safety critical system in beyond me. It is just outrageous that Toyota GB thinks that this is acceptable.

Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 any fault found within the first six months after purchase is deemed to have been present on the day of purchase. Obviously the case here because the TSS system is poorly designed and cannot have been fully tested in all climatic conditions. Under the Consumer Rights Act any buyer has to give the seller (not Toyota GB in the case I accept – though as the supplier of a poorly designed system to the dealer Toyota GB will be seen to have ultimate responsibility) one attempt to resolve the issue. That attempt took place on 10^th January when the Toyota GB TSB work was carried out, and following those works the TSS system is still “not fit for purpose”.

Given that I accept that your design engineers obviously require more time to produce another modification to the TSS system to make sure that it is “fit for purpose”, and am prepared to allow the dealer and Toyota GB until the end of January 2017 to carry out that design work AND to have those modifications fitted to my car.

After that date I reserve my rights to reject the car on the grounds that it is “not fit for purpose”.

[Makokk]

Let's see how they respond.. I'm not sure where I stand considering it's been a year already. I cannot fathom having to pay a massive penalty for milage and loose money from my hard earned savings as a result, which obiously would not buy my a car of the same value and specs.. they should compensate considering they are selling a faulty system that they know it'/ not working a designed to work. i think I'll write them another email and see what they say.. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Thread moved to General Discussions as this issue isn't related just to the Yaris.

[Makokk]

Mind you they tried to argue with me that the car is still drivable regarldless lf the issue with the sensors..

[Heidfirst]

3 hours ago, Makokk said:

. We installed this for a very specific purpose in order to have a certain safety benefit that can be critical in the event of a collision.

the pre-collision system doesn't just use a camera & from what you have earlier said on at least one occasion may have saved you from being in an accident.

It is quite possible that whilst e.g. the auto headlights function may not be working properly that other parts of the system (e.g. pre-collision) are.

 

The car will still be drivable - after all we have coped without similar for over 100 years.

[cobh18]

I wonder whether the pre-collision system is working, at times when the error messages are flashing. I suspect not.