12v battery maintenance

[Haliotis]

I have to ask the question, “Why does my CH-R not have an Alternator to charge the 12 volt Battery?”  Is it because the manufacturer believes (possibly erroneously) that it isn’t necessary, or have they simply assumed that the risk of flat 12 volt batteries is acceptable in favour of saving on the cost of an alternator?

The fact that there are owners who have had trouble, and some have invested in charging equipment (where this never became needed on their previous ICE cars working under the same conditions), tells me that there is a problem which should be addressed.

My current thinking is that, if/when I do decide to change my car again, the chances are that I would go back to an ICE diesel vehicle.

[Parts-King]

7 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

I have to ask the question, “Why does my CH-R not have an Alternator to charge the 12 volt battery?”  Is it because the manufacturer believes (possibly erroneously) that it isn’t necessary, or have they simply assumed that the risk of flat 12 volt batteries is acceptable in favour of saving on the cost of an alternator?

The fact that there are owners who have had trouble, and some have invested in charging equipment (where this never became needed on their previous ICE cars working under the same conditions), tells me that there is a problem which should be addressed.

My current thinking is that, if/when I do decide to change my car again, the chances are that I would go back to an ICE diesel vehicle.

Your choice

Toyota have been doing this for 25 years with Hybrid, nothing to do with not having an alternator

[Roy124]

2 hours ago, Haliotis said:

 “Why does my CH-R not have an Alternator to charge the 12 volt battery?”  Is it because the manufacturer believes (possibly erroneously) that it isn’t necessary, or have they simply assumed that the risk of flat 12 volt batteries is acceptable in favour of saving on the cost of an alternator?

No.  An alternator is usually belt driven from the engine.  This adds weight and resistance thus reducing fuel economy.  Similarly a belt driven radiator fan was removed years ago.

The Holy Grail is reduction of CO2.

[Haliotis]

2 hours ago, Roy124 said:

 

The Holy Grail is reduction of CO2.

Ah yes, getting rid of the ICE cars will be a big saver of the CO2 problem!  Ha,ha.  It may have an insignificant plus but, in the long term, increases in Earth’s population will eventually move us back to square one - everyone has an unavoidable carbon footprint.  The manufacture, replacement and disposal of EV batteries may yet to prove a greater threat than the demise of the ICE.

Renault-Geely plan to invest up to £6 billion to develop low-emission diesel, petrol and hybrid engines, employing 19,000 people at 17 engine factories.  So someone must think the EV car has been seriously over-hyped.

[Eddie G]

8 hours ago, Haliotis said:

I have to ask the question, “Why does my CH-R not have an Alternator to charge the 12 volt battery?”  Is it because the manufacturer believes (possibly erroneously) that it isn’t necessary, or have they simply assumed that the risk of flat 12 volt batteries is acceptable in favour of saving on the cost of an alternator?

The fact that there are owners who have had trouble, and some have invested in charging equipment (where this never became needed on their previous ICE cars working under the same conditions), tells me that there is a problem which should be addressed.

My current thinking is that, if/when I do decide to change my car again, the chances are that I would go back to an ICE diesel vehicle.

I've gone back to ICE, zero worry about 12v Battery now as i do mainly short trips, was a toss up between a Aygo X and a 2-3 year old Yaris ended up with a 1.5 Y20 Yaris.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Eddie G
spelling

[Cyker]

The question doesn't really make sense with the hybrids - In a sense it already has one; MG1 is effectively 'the alternator', but it charges the high voltage traction Battery, and the traction Battery in turn charges the 12v Battery via a stepdown converter (aka the DC-DC system).

 

[Haliotis]

On 7/19/2023 at 8:11 PM, Eddie G said:

I've gone back to ICE, zero worry about 12v battery now as i do mainly short trips, was a toss up between a Aygo X and a 2-3 year old Yaris ended up with a 1.5 Y20 Yaris.

Seems I’m not alone in my thinking, then.  Already having pangs of conscience about being so quick to part with my 2017 VW Caravelle, since deciding it was a too expensive car to keep after giving up caravanning.  The COVID fiasco meant that we never did get full benefits of having that car, although it wasn’t the first time I got cash back from a trade-in!   Will consider an alternative Toyota ICE (if I do revert back), but my previous VW Touran was an excellent motor so that model would still be a consideration.

[Roy124]

Albert, if you use the car, you should not have a problem.  If you do not use it for more than one hour in ready mode at least once a fortnight then you might consider one of the emergency or preventative options suggested in this forum:

A mains charger

A solar charger

or a Battery jumper pack

 

[Big_D]

After reading about the problems with hybrids and their 12v batteries, I bought a sloar charger, in case I needed it. So far, I have never had the need to use any charger on either of my C-HRs, or the Good Lady's Yaris. Back in December 2021, after not using my old C-HR for two weeks, I did have to uses a booster Battery to provide enough power to start the car. This was the one and only problem I have ever had with the 12v Battery.

As @Roy124 says, if you use the car you shouldn't have any problems, even if the trip is short. It's not about the number of miles that are done, but about the length of time the journey takes.

[ANGIEJ]

1 hour ago, Big_D said:

After reading about the problems with hybrids and their 12v batteries, I bought a sloar charger, in case I needed it. So far, I have never had the need to use any charger on either of my C-HRs, or the Good Lady's Yaris. Back in December 2021, after not using my old C-HR for two weeks, I did have to uses a booster battery to provide enough power to start the car. This was the one and only problem I have ever had with the 12v battery.

As @Roy124 says, if you use the car you shouldn't have any problems, even if the trip is short. It's not about the number of miles that are done, but about the length of time the journey takes.

Hiya 

thank you for your info .  
iv had my 23 gr sports 3 weeks n fingers crossed all’s okay 

no problems at all with it .   I bought the novo gb55 jump starter in case I do come across a flat 12v Battery … 

I did however need to use it yesterday as my streetka (old car) had a flat Battery .. 

I take it out once a week to keep it going until I decide to sell it !! But yesterday Battery was flat n my first time using the jump starter !! 
easy to use and a very handy piece of equipment .. 

so now I know how to use it is piece of mind .

my Chr is a dream to drive and am enjoying setting things up and getting to know the car !! 
absolutely love it !! 
again thank you for your info 

[Haliotis]

I am hoping that I use it enough to avoid flattening the 12v Battery but, in case I do need a charger, I am considering a NICO GENIUS - either the 2-amp or the 5-amp - which are available at Halfords.  

As garage used as a workshop, the car stands on the driveway.  There is sufficient clearance under the up-and-over door to close door without trapping extension cable. However, I feel I would need to find access into the engine compartment from underneath to locate the charger under the bonnet, without leaving the bonnet unlatched, for security reasons and to prevent risk of water ingress in rainy conditions.

[yossarian247]

31 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

I am hoping that I use it enough to avoid flattening the 12v battery but, in case I do need a charger, I am considering a NICO GENIUS - either the 2-amp or the 5-amp - which are available at Halfords.  

As garage used as a workshop, the car stands on the driveway.  There is sufficient clearance under the up-and-over door to close door without trapping extension cable. However, I feel I would need to find access into the engine compartment from underneath to locate the charger under the bonnet, without leaving the bonnet unlatched, for security reasons and to prevent risk of water ingress in rainy conditions.

I've found that as long as I choose the position carefully, and don't use a very thick extension lead, I can fully close and latch the bonnet with the cable trapped in it without causing any damage to the cable or anything else. Right next to the headlamp seems to work well on the C-HR as there's slightly more clearance between the corner of the lamp and the bonnet to get a cable through without crushing it.

[Harters]

18 hours ago, yossarian247 said:

I've found that as long as I choose the position carefully, and don't use a very thick extension lead, I can fully close and latch the bonnet with the cable trapped in it without causing any damage to the cable or anything else. Right next to the headlamp seems to work well on the C-HR as there's slightly more clearance between the corner of the lamp and the bonnet to get a cable through without crushing it.

Even though my car is in the garage, whenever I put mine on charge I can fully close the bonnet.  I run the cable out the back of the bonnet by the windscreen as there seems to be plenty of room as it is not such a tight seal.

I really don't think you need to worry to much about it, as I can not use my car for a week sometimes and I don't have any problems and my Battery is now over 6 years old.  I only put the smart charger on it for a few hours twice a week if I am on holiday for two or more weeks.

[Haliotis]

Thanks for all the helpful comments.  Based on these I’ll just keep the NOCO in mind unless I eventually find it necessary.  In the meantime, if I did have a problem, I can lay my hands on a relative’s charger fairly quickly.

[loz8]

The joke's on us,should have demanded a free jumper and lesson at purchase. Do dealers sneak out at night charging flat's?.  The Battery not necessarily toast,been "jumping" 3 yrs now.  Was not fun on Sun in the rain,all over the fuses. Unusually not the normal dash groan,oh no not again,but all dash lit but not "ready" R2 D2 chorus twittering away,so there must have been a bit left,not enough. Boost on and off for lunch.

[O.W.L.]

I am retired and only tend to use my C-HR 1.8 to pop down to the gym three times a week (15 minutes each way) and maybe the odd unplanned trip locally, once a week maybe. I am now finding that despite always connecting an AA solar charger when the car is not in use, it fails to start once a fortnight. Usually every other Friday.

This morning it failed again and I had to connect my jump starter to get the ready light up. Then, halfway off the drive and into the road, everything stopped, the ready light went out and I was stuck, half out into the road. Couldn't even make the wheels move in neutral. Had to connect two extension leads together and jump start it again, just to get back on to the drive and connect a Battery charger, which I shall now leave on all day.

Last year, Toyota had the car in overnight, just to tell me that there is nothing wrong with it, and inform me that the 12v Battery was in good health. 

Weirdly, I seem to be perfectly able to go away for a week at a time, leaving the car on the drive, and it starts perfectly when I get back.  

My question is - I am not going to change my driving habits, I just want a car that starts reliably, like every other car I've owned over the last 50 years. Can I solve this problem by purchasing and fitting a more powerful 12v Battery, or would that just run down like this one does?

[glencrannog]

This thread makes me think back as to when I first visited the Toyota dealership, and being shown around, oblivious as to hybrid starting problems, i noticed a member of staff "jumping" a 22 reg Yaris Cross. I happened, in all innocence to say to the salesman that that didn't look too clever. I now realise in my ignorance at the time, what the issue was. 

[Haliotis]

Like Tom, I too am retired (well retired).  I probably use my car a little more than he, but there can be times when I have done very short trips over a few days and then leave it standing for another few days.  From what I have been reading, it looks as though I should not be surprised if I come up against a flat Battery at some time.

When I had arranged to view the car and take a test drive, the Battery was flat and had to be boosted for the test drive to happen.  But the car was by then 22 months old and who knows what state it was in after the first owner? They did fit a new Battery before I took delivery of the car.

[loz8]

I wonder why Toyota/dealers are turning a blind eye,when I fill a after service questionnaire I mention it

[Haliotis]

I don’t think it is only Toyota dealership who behave in this manner.  With my previous VW, I had cause to make adverse observations on a couple of observations, and I subsequently failed to receive emails for a review after service.

Our son has his car serviced at the same VW dealership, and he had cause to contact the service manager to tell him he was giving a critical review and reducing the number of stars given.  The service manager then told him this would reflect on the receptionist, as it was her job to ensure that 5 stars were awarded.  Our son challenged him on this and said that a review was based on the quality of service given by the technician - this was refuted, and he even discovered that the technician does not have access to previous service history of the car he is servicing.

It will be interesting how I find the new-to-me service quality of the Toyota dealership.

[philip42h]

6 hours ago, O.W.L. said:

I am retired and only tend to use my C-HR 1.8 to pop down to the gym three times a week (15 minutes each way) and maybe the odd unplanned trip locally, once a week maybe. I am now finding that despite always connecting an AA solar charger when the car is not in use, it fails to start once a fortnight. Usually every other Friday.

This morning it failed again and I had to connect my jump starter to get the ready light up. Then, halfway off the drive and into the road, everything stopped, the ready light went out and I was stuck, half out into the road. Couldn't even make the wheels move in neutral. Had to connect two extension leads together and jump start it again, just to get back on to the drive and connect a battery charger, which I shall now leave on all day.

Last year, Toyota had the car in overnight, just to tell me that there is nothing wrong with it, and inform me that the 12v battery was in good health. 

Weirdly, I seem to be perfectly able to go away for a week at a time, leaving the car on the drive, and it starts perfectly when I get back.  

My question is - I am not going to change my driving habits, I just want a car that starts reliably, like every other car I've owned over the last 50 years. Can I solve this problem by purchasing and fitting a more powerful 12v battery, or would that just run down like this one does?

The question turns on whether when you are driving the car (or in Ready mode) you are generating more charge than the car uses while standing idle. Just adding a bigger Battery won't make any material difference to that equation.

In theory at least your journey profile - 3x 15minutes x2 = 90 minutes per week - should be more than enough to cover the remaining standing time. Toyota ask for 60 minutes per week and folk are getting away with less. On that basis, you shouldn't have a problem ...

... but you evidently do, so we'd have to ask why?

• If the issue has started relatively recently it could be that the Battery is getting past it's best and needs replacing. Against that Toyota have tested it and found it to be good.
• It could be a driving habit that you need to change! Specifically, the car should either be in Ready mode or Off; never in Accessory mode or Ignition on for more than a few seconds. Folk don't realise and put the car into Accessory mode to listen to the radio etc. - that prevents the car from charging the Battery while the accessories, lights or air condition can flatten it.
• It could be that there is something connected to the permanent live that shouldn't be - i.e. an aftermarket accessory such as a Dashcam operating while the car is parked.
• Or there could be something wrong with the car itself.

(Or other things that I haven't thought of !!! 😉 )

I new / bigger battery and putting the car on charge (smart charger) once a week would also, almost certainly, sort the issue.

[O.W.L.]

I don't think that I have ever used accessory mode - I wouldn't even know how to, and I have no aftermarket accessories fitted to the car.

This happened once shortly after I first bought it about 18 months ago (when it was 2 years old) and what prompted me to buy the solar charger, but has now happened 3 times in the last 6 weeks.

About the only change is that I have been parking it in a different spot on my drive, facing north instead of east. Maybe the solar charger gets less sunlight in its new position?

If that's not to blame, that leaves the Battery itself and/or something wrong with the car.

[philip42h]

19 minutes ago, O.W.L. said:

I don't think that I have ever used accessory mode - I wouldn't even know how to, and I have no aftermarket accessories fitted to the car.

This happened once shortly after I first bought it about 18 months ago (when it was 2 years old) and what prompted me to buy the solar charger, but has now happened 3 times in the last 6 weeks.

About the only change is that I have been parking it in a different spot on my drive, facing north instead of east. Maybe the solar charger gets less sunlight in its new position?

If that's not to blame, that leaves the battery itself and/or something wrong with the car.

You get into Accessory mode by pressing the Start button without depressing the brake pedal. One of our RAV4 colleagues took his nice new car down to the seaside and sat there happily listening to the radio - in Accessory mode; without the engine running. When he attempted to come home again the car said 'no'! But if it's not that, it's not that.

The solar charger will work most effectively facing 'south'. Facing predominantly 'north' would significantly reduce its ability to generate power. But even then with the journey times you quote you shouldn't really have a problem.

I am assuming that your solar charger is connected correctly- i.e. not connected via the accessory socket?

You can, obviously, change the Battery and/or put it on charge once a week to see whether that helps ...

[O.W.L.]

Thanks, Philip. I connect the charger to the socket under the dash, to the right of the steering wheel.

I suppose I could always back the car onto the driveway, so it is facing south. Hadn't thought of that. It means driving out into the lane forwards, past my neighbours overgrown hedge instead of having the benefit of the reversing camera, which is terrifically effective at spotting oncoming vehicles before the car gets out on to the road, but hey ho.

Maybe putting the Battery on charge once a week is the way to go. Bit of a pain, but I suppose I have to give in to the reality.

 

 

[Roy124]

We have just installed solar panels on the house and the panel I put when the sun is over the yardarm is minimal.

I agree about the reversing camera.  I could use a forward one too 😀.

A mains charger would certainly help.