2.0 hybrid judder /missfire

[taxidriver50005]

29 minutes ago, Trewithy said:

I may be wrong but I believe that the engine in the 1.5 Yaris is the same engine as in the 2.0LCorolla but just reduced to 3 cylinders.  In the Yaris section of this forum I don't recall any Yaris owners reporting failed injectors.  Strange.

Unfortunately they have as with lexus 2.5... 

[Cyker]

5 hours ago, Trewithy said:

I may be wrong but I believe that the engine in the 1.5 Yaris is the same engine as in the 2.0LCorolla but just reduced to 3 cylinders.  In the Yaris section of this forum I don't recall any Yaris owners reporting failed injectors.  Strange.

I think the Corolla has D4S (Multiport and Direct injection), while the Yaris (hybrid) only has multiport injection.

If it's the #3 direct injector that's failing, that would explain why we don't get that problem  

[ThomasL]

I did not know that about the Yaris! I thought all Dynamic Force engines used D4S, but according to Wikipedia the M15 range do indeed only use one type or t'other.

Yaris had I think EGR cooler problems, caused by dodgy fuel in Italy or somewhere?

[TonyHSD]

That’s right above Yaris engine. 
Strangely in previous posts someone mentioned if I remember correctly that the failed injectors are actually the port injectors and not the high pressure direct injection ones, which I believe they work most of the times. Add the fact that they failed when closed and let fuel flood the combustion it is very likely all that happens because of the dry fuels aka ethanol content. 
This is my theory, not scientifically proven,  but makes sense to me as eventual the reason for the issues. 

[ThomasL]

Are the port injectors used in Dynamic Force engines different to the good old bulletproof 1.8L engine?

Unless that port injector failure + engine destruction was just one really rare occurrence, and the direct injector issue is more common?

[Cyker]

46 minutes ago, ThomasL said:

I did not know that about the Yaris! I thought all Dynamic Force engines used D4S, but according to Wikipedia the M15 range do indeed only use one type or t'other.

Yaris had I think EGR cooler problems, caused by dodgy fuel in Italy or somewhere?

Fortunately that wasn't a manufacturing or design problem with the Yaris engine, but chlorine contamination in the fuel - It somehow caused extreme corrosion in the EGR cooler and wrecked the engines. Hopefully our fuel standards and checking are more stringent than the Italians'!

[taxidriver50005]

Right I've just watched an interesting video on YouTube which explains a few issues with direct injection motors and this may be relevant to our misfire problems. 

The vid states that direct injection motors can have LSPR low speed pre ignition caused by carbon in the combustion chamber igniting the fuel .

The higher the compression the more this could happen. 

I'm now wondering if somehow the EGR circuit is feeding number 3 cylinder more exhaust gas than other cylinders causing a rise in carbon build up that may be affecting spray patterns on injector.. More prevalent on number 3 injector. 

Now if this is the case what can we do about it, I'm going for regular oil flushes with liquid moly pro engine flush.. I have used this in my previous prius for 400,000 miles and not only did reduce my oil consumption to zero between 10,000 miles oil changes it also stopped said burnt oil entering EGR circuit and clogging the whole circuit up.. EGR.. EGR cooler.. Intake manifold... Somthink that has plagued prius and Auris owners alike. 

So less oil entering EGR and then combustion chamber should equal less carbon. 

Secondly I'm going to start useing liquid moly pro line direct injector cleaner.. A little harder to source but I think I've found some (search for liquid moly 21281. This is a very small can so assuming very potent ) and hopefully this will keep injectors clean... This is of corse assuming it's a mixture of poor spray pattern and carbon build up that is causing LSPR.. Or it might be something else altogether... But without any other information I'm giving this a try.. 🤔🤔🤔

[Delta01]

From 2023 Toyota uses direct and indirect injection, so I think from that date no more problems?

[taxidriver50005]

1 hour ago, Delta01 said:

From 2023 Toyota uses direct and indirect injection, so I think from that date no more problems?

Toyota has been using this on corolla since 2019 and I believe 2017 on camry hybrids... D4S is what the system is called I think. 

[ThomasL]

Interesting video especially about the timing chain wear, will see if that becomes an issue on dynamic force engines!

The vid said LSPI mainly happens during low RPM, high load. As far as I know (I'm not a tech!) the hybrid dynamic force engine would be using battery+port injectors during those conditions so LSPI shouldn't happen often.

I'll definitely be looking into the liqui moly flush, sounds like it may be useful! Did you have to clean your old Prius EGR/intake system at all during the 400k miles?

[ThomasL]

On 4/29/2024 at 9:51 PM, Cyker said:

Fortunately that wasn't a manufacturing or design problem with the Yaris engine, but chlorine contamination in the fuel - It somehow caused extreme corrosion in the EGR cooler and wrecked the engines. Hopefully our fuel standards and checking are more stringent than the Italians'!

It's a shame though that they made the cooler out of material that can be corroded by chlorine - the old coolers were made out of more robust materials I believe?

[Cyker]

I assume whatever part corroded was made of aluminium - Chlorine munches through aluminium very readily. Not much you can do about that.

It's all part of the drive to make cars lighter and using aluminium parts instead of steel is the most common way of doing that.

But there just shouldn't be chlorine in fuel full stop, so they would never have anticipated that as a design requirement any more than they'd design the system to resist strong radiation or super murder petrol cockroaches or something similarly random.

 

I doubt chain wear will be an issue - Toyota D4D engines run easily into the high 100k miles before they even need checking whether new chain is needed, and diesel puts several orders of magnitude more soot into the oil than any petrol could; If they can survive 100k+ miles of that, they'll survive the piddly amount of soot a petrol engine produces!  

 

I'm not sure how LSPI is a factor with a direct injection engine - There shouldn't be any fuel in the cylinder during the compression stroke so what is igniting exactly?

 

[forkingabout]

2 hours ago, ThomasL said:

The vid said LSPI mainly happens during low RPM, high load. 

My previous Purecrap 130 powered Peugeot 308 T9 which was petrol directed injected & turbo charged had a engine ecu software update to solve a known LSPI issue.

The specification of the spark plugs on earlier turbocharged versions of the Purecrap was also changed ( different heat range of spark plug ) as the spark plugs where suffering from ceramic breakup. 

[TonyHSD]

Coolers seems to me made from the same or similar materials., stainless steel. 
Perhaps it’s not from the cooler but how injectors works, dry fuel ( high ethanol content)  kills these and they can’t close fully and let fuel drip into the chambers when not in use. 

[taxidriver50005]

4 hours ago, ThomasL said:

Interesting video especially about the timing chain wear, will see if that becomes an issue on dynamic force engines!

The vid said LSPI mainly happens during low RPM, high load. As far as I know (I'm not a tech!) the hybrid dynamic force engine would be using battery+port injectors during those conditions so LSPI shouldn't happen often.

I'll definitely be looking into the liqui moly flush, sounds like it may be useful! Did you have to clean your old Prius EGR/intake system at all during the 400k miles?

Prius EGR system was cleaned at about 140,000 after that I started doing engine flushes and the only time I looked again was at 350,000 when head gasket failed... I intended cleaning it then but it wasn't worth messing with as EGR ports were relatively clean... Sold car at 400,000 still running fine with no noticeable oil consumption between changes. 

[taxidriver50005]

Well it's here.. Now time to start a regular injector cleaner and engine flush regime 

[TonyHSD]

Having filled up with Shell 95 e10 I had engine knocking every single cold start in the last few day. Added 14ltrs of bp 97 e5 and wynns stabiliser , no more trouble. The fuels are to blame these days for many engine problems. The modern cars might be suited to store and inject the fuel into engine, but the fuel itself doesn’t do a favour to the engine parts, particularly the moving ones. Talked to a lady with a dad mechanic, she absolutely agreed with me and confirmed that plus she noted that after a good advice from her dad she only use premium fuels. She also has a solar charger in non hybrid car as she doesn’t drive so often., she could joint the club here easily 😉👍 

[taxidriver50005]

4 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Having filled up with shell 95 e10 I had engine knocking every single cold start in the last few day. Added 14ltrs of bp 97 e5 and wynns stabiliser , no more trouble. The fuels are to blame these days for many engine problems. The modern cars might be suited to store and inject the fuel into engine, but the fuel itself doesn’t do a favour to the engine parts, particularly the moving ones. Talked to a lady with a dad mechanic, she absolutely agreed with me and confirmed that plus she noted that after a good advice from her dad she only use premium fuels. She also has a solar charger in non hybrid car as she doesn’t drive so often., she could joint the club here easily 😉👍 

Have you a obd plug in dongle, if so down load car scanner and can check EGR flow in case that's the issue 

 

I can honestly say I've never had fuel related issues where changing brands or quality made any difference... Yours being 1.8 should not be affected by poor quality fuels

[Saxmaniac]

On 5/2/2024 at 5:36 PM, Cyker said:

I assume whatever part corroded was made of aluminium - Chlorine munches through aluminium very readily. Not much you can do about that.

It's all part of the drive to make cars lighter and using aluminium parts instead of steel is the most common way of doing that.

But there just shouldn't be chlorine in fuel full stop, so they would never have anticipated that as a design requirement any more than they'd design the system to resist strong radiation or super murder petrol cockroaches or something similarly random.

 

I doubt chain wear will be an issue - Toyota D4D engines run easily into the high 100k miles before they even need checking whether new chain is needed, and diesel puts several orders of magnitude more soot into the oil than any petrol could; If they can survive 100k+ miles of that, they'll survive the piddly amount of soot a petrol engine produces!  

 

I'm not sure how LSPI is a factor with a direct injection engine - There shouldn't be any fuel in the cylinder during the compression stroke so what is igniting exactly?

 

Lspi was problem with DI engines early on due to small pockets of fuel exploding uncontrolled at the edge of the pistons. This could destroy the pistons and wreck engines. Apparently the type of oil is critical as one additive in the oil promoted this. I can't remember precise details but using the correct oil stops this 

[taxidriver50005]

Had a interesting chat to parts guy at my local dealers.... When I originally has a missfire on my corolla and dealers fixed it I was told by service guys that direct injectors have been replaced.. Turns out I was misinformed..... The guy looked through my cars history and informed me port injectors have been booked out on my job. 

Not sure whether this is good or bad.. Port injectors are defo cheaper than direct to replace but Toyota has been making these forever so why are they failing now 🤔

Also mentioned they like to keep 2-3 sets in stock... Little alarming as they had to order spark plugs for my car as they don't keep them on the shelf..... 🙄

[TonyHSD]

50 minutes ago, taxidriver50005 said:

Had a interesting chat to parts guy at my local dealers.... When I originally has a missfire on my corolla and dealers fixed it I was told by service guys that direct injectors have been replaced.. Turns out I was misinformed..... The guy looked through my cars history and informed me port injectors have been booked out on my job. 

Not sure whether this is good or bad.. Port injectors are defo cheaper than direct to replace but Toyota has been making these forever so why are they failing now 🤔

Also mentioned they like to keep 2-3 sets in stock... Little alarming as they had to order spark plugs for my car as they don't keep them on the shelf..... 🙄

That’s what I understood from previous posts from other members and the man who got rid of his Corolla after new engine was fitted. 
Port injectors in these engines are the one that get less use, they are actually more like an additive into the fuel to clean the intake system.
They do work every time you use the car but only at certain moments and for a shorter period of time. 
My logic is that as a result of poor quality fuels in the uk the port injectors are seized open or partially open letting liquid petrol enter the combustion chambers and this is the cause for misfire and hydro locks = destroyed engines in some cases. 
 

[ThomasL]

Interesting! And much less worrying if it's the port injectors I think.

I understand it's more complicated than this chart below shows, but it appears that port injectors will be likely used up to ~4800 RPM and medium load, and could be exclusively used under 2800 RPM when conditions are right.

That chart is from the detailed engine explanation at toyota-club.net.

[taxidriver50005]

3 hours ago, ThomasL said:

Interesting! And much less worrying if it's the port injectors I think.

I understand it's more complicated than this chart below shows, but it appears that port injectors will be likely used up to ~4800 RPM and medium load, and could be exclusively used under 2800 RPM when conditions are right.

That chart is from the detailed engine explanation at toyota-club.net.

Looks like port injectors will be getting used most of the time under normal driving conditions.. Yes combined but still being used..... Now the next piece to find out is what exactly is failing.... Clogging.. Leaking... Poor seal...... Leaking surly is a manufacturing fault... Leaking may well be down to modern fuel eating seals..... Clogging.... Well I can see how this could happen as there just spraying in the air flow... How could they clog.... 🤔

[Saxmaniac]

Could be bad batches or a change in design that's made them worse, sometimes a component manufacturer can go cheap on some aspect of a part and whoops, there's a problem 

[yossarian247]

Considering the couple of reports of injectors being replaced, then the replacement apparently failing almost immediately, it does tend to suggest faulty batch/batches of injectors working their way through the supply chain perhaps?