12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[MCatPG]

Question - how do you find out what kind of 12V auxillary Battery you have? Do you have to disconnect it and remove it from the vehicle? I cannot see any ID while it is in situ. I don't have time to pull it out and we are going away tomorrow - I need to know if the Optimate 20W solar panel I have bought will work with it - I strongly suspect if the Battery is calcium chemistry the Optimate won't work.

[Dala]

Optimate solar duo 20w is cool.  He charges the car Battery in the sun and then maintains it.   According to the photos, it looks like a Turkish Battery Ca-Ca 35Ah.  A 16.5V charger is required to fully charge a CA-CA car Battery to 100%.  The battery must be disconnected at 16.5V!  Without disconnection only CTEK mod RECON - max 15.8V.

[MCatPG]

4 hours ago, Dala said:

Optimate solar duo 20w is cool.  He charges the car battery in the sun and then maintains it.   According to the photos, it looks like a Turkish battery Ca-Ca 35Ah.  A 16.5V charger is required to fully charge a CA-CA car battery to 100%.  The battery must be disconnected at 16.5V!  Without disconnection only CTEK mod RECON - max 15.8V.

@Dala Our Optimate + MPPT controller is not  a Duo. It is the plain version. The only difference is that the Duo can charge Lithium chemistry batteries but the plain one can't. Nobody is suggesting that the Toyota 12V auxiliary Battery is Lithium so there is no point paying the extra for the Duo.

Assuming that the 12V auxiliary Battery uses Ca-Ca chemistry (conventional lead with calcium added to the plates) I have found two interpretations of the consequences.

The first is what you said - the Battery must be charged at 16.5V to achieve 100% charge.  The second is that it can be charged at up to 16.5 V.

If the first interpretation is correct then neither the car's on-board DC>DC converter/charger when the car is in "Ready" mode, nor the Optimate kit when the car is out of use and receiving solar power, will charge the battery fully and it will gradually deteriorate, probably over the course of a year or two, to the point where it will be unable to maintain a correct State of Charge for even 24 hours. If the owner attempts to overcome this problem by using a charger energised by 230V AC with a  16.5V output while the battery is connected to the vehicle we don't know whether such a high output voltage would damage expensive electronic components in the vehicle. It probably wouldn't (Toyota probably built high voltage protection into the relevant circuits) but we don't know.

If the second interpretation is correct then the Optimate kit may be able to maintain the battery during periods when the car is standing idle if the battery is in good condition from the beginning, but if the battery is compromised the Optimate kit will do little to help, and it may do nothing at all.

Our car has been used regularly for a mixture of short (2 mile), medium, and long (155 mile) journeys during the last month. It has been used almost every day. I measured our car's 12V auxiliary battery voltage this afternoon while taking the photos I posted above, using my multimeter, and I saw 12.2V. I checked twice. That indicates a Ca-Ca battery which has been discharged to somewhere between 20%-40% capacity. If it is an AGM battery then it's 50% SoC. If it's Ca-Ca it has been damaged significantly. If it's AGM it's potentially damaged but recoverable.

It is 5 months since we took delivery of the car but there were almost exactly 2 months between the car leaving the factory and us taking delivery. It would not surprise me if a lot of the damage was done then. But we will never know. Either way I am pretty sure our battery has been damaged and it's not our fault.

I am doing my best to understand this problem and as I have already posted I think owners have to rely on self help. But I am really quite p**s*d off because we have not abused our car and the 12V auxiliary battery is down to 12.2V which is inadequate voltage whether it's Ca-Ca or AGM. 

[Primus1]

Funnily enough today I was in the dealers arranging delivery of my new Yaris cross, she mentioned that people who drive 2k miles per year will get flat batteries, with no prompting from me, they obviously know there are problems, seems like I’ll still Ned to keep my charger handy, ( I do more than 2k a year btw).

[Derek.w]

Just had a quick look at the Bosh Battery its not stop/start recomended so probably not a EFB type Battery.

Your cars BMC wont like it.

Please Note its not charged at 16volts thats to high for a calcium EFB Battery (Ca-CA) battery.

Charging voltage is around 14.0 to 14.6 volts

If you charging at 16 volts on load  I suspect its a open circuit voltage as I suspect on load its only 14.8 volts.

[SouperChris]

It seems the future is not electric for some. I imagine if you have unusual driving patterns, typical ICE cars are your best option. 

[YarisHybrid2016]

My car is nearly 9 years old. Still on original 12V Battery! No issues.

These cars don't like sitting around. I put mine on a float-charger if it will sit more than 2 weeks...which is never.

No comment on "lockdown". 😇

[CruxisCore]

I suppose this has been posted here before, but funny I stumbled on to this as I was browsing this thread 😄

https://youtu.be/FhdWqdFzvGM?t=1013

Carwows original Yaris Hybrid 2021 review has the 12v Battery die on Matt Watson. He doesnt really shame the car for it or anything but left it as a blooper in the end

 

[Max_Headroom]

So as not to add another 12v Battery thread to the many here could i ask those members who carry a jump pack what you  bought and have you used it, a link would be great.

Even though i am sure my weekly mileage (which isn't a huge amount) will be enough to keep the 12v Battery happy i think buying a jump pack and having peace of mind knowing i will never get stuck is well worth the money spent to get it.

[Dala]

the car has been driven at least every other day for about 3 years
each ride 2x 43 km (2x 27 UK miles) 2x one hour drive
I regularly use a CTEK charger in the winter months and a 20W solar panel in the summer
today after visiting the garage - checking the 12V Battery - 12.2V car Battery is fine - must be recharged
I had to laugh

[Yaris Hybrid 2021]

Apparently the problems with the 12v Battery concern newer cars because I have never had any problems with the batteries and even now the second car (2013) is driven even less than the Toyota and has had no problems. And I have owned about 20 cars. And I really don't charge the batteries more than once a year. In my opinion, Toyota's Battery discharges somewhere or the charger is ineffective. Changing the Battery doesn't help the problem.

[flash22]

46 minutes ago, Yaris Hybrid 2021 said:

Apparently the problems with the 12v battery concern newer cars because I have never had any problems with the batteries and even now the second car (2013) is driven even less than the Toyota and has had no problems. And I have owned about 20 cars. And I really don't charge the batteries more than once a year. In my opinion, Toyota's battery discharges somewhere or the charger is ineffective. Changing the battery doesn't help the problem.

Newer cars have a mass amount of electronics in them, in recent years batteries have been an issue due to cars sitting over 4 months in some case before being sold, many dealers had been fast charging batteries then running tests rather than replacing the batteries what have also been in short supply - this compounds the issue of these batteries being calcium EFB that require the correct charge voltage and current, failure to do so reduces the life span

as i said before, it's not the car, it's the dealers that are the issue - if you want something done right, do it yourself or inspect the work that has been done eg. checking the date code on the Battery

[TonyHSD]

That’s the problem actually. Some people  like elderly, disabled, people without a driveways, facilities or knowledge. How they can take care of their cars as diy when they absolutely have no chance? They choose a Toyota for well known reliability and trust the dealers. They had done best they can and got themselves into a trouble. I fully understand these people and their frustration. Even if it’s not the car’s fault  they have no choice but to get rid of it and buy something else , something that will not require those extra care and can be used as much as they need. Some people drive every day a lot some only once in a while and for a short time only. The car should be able to deliver. 
I agree the electronics are the big killer here but even so a new car should be able to remain in stand by for at least 2-3 weeks and be able to start without any issues afterwards. If not then it is a problem. Infrequent use will shorten  the lifespan of a Battery, but going on with solar panels, cables, chargers, not ideal. I only charged my Battery once because it’s very old and I didn’t touch the car for 20 days, since then once a week in ready mode and I have no patience to smart charge it anymore even though I have a driveway, it’s  a hassle. And indeed, the less you drive the less electronics you need, cars like Dacia sandero, vw polo, up, Aygo, Kia picanto, i20 , all those small petrol engine cars are the best bet for most infrequent drivers. 👍

[Jean565]

I have been lurking in these forums for quite a while!  I have learned a lot and came to the conclusion that the Yaris we ordered could turn out to be a liability due to lack  of regular use and   our  lack of suitable facilities for Battery charging etc.   Instead we changed the order to an automatic Aygo X which is now in transit.  It's been  difficult to work out what car would suit our current needs.  We have had two Yaris' over the last 22 years ( our current Yaris is 2010 reg ) and we would have happily had another Yaris.  It was only when I queried the 12 volt Battery problems with the dealer was I told you need to drive a hybrid regularly and they arranged a test drive in an auto Aygo X.   So hopefully  this car will be suitable and reliable as our previous cars.

[Cyker]

My Mk4 was out of action for a month and as far as I know the repairer didn't trickle charge it during that time, but it didn't have any 12v problems when I picked it up. I took it on another 2 hour hoon after just to make sure tho'  

 

[nasamorpheus]

Toyota doesn't care.. they could start a car with hybrid Battery but they choose cheaper small 12v battery 

[MCatPG]

On 6/21/2023 at 7:42 PM, Max_Headroom said:

So as not to add another 12v battery thread to the many here could i ask those members who carry a jump pack what you  bought and have you used it, a link would be great.

Even though i am sure my weekly mileage (which isn't a huge amount) will be enough to keep the 12v battery happy i think buying a jump pack and having peace of mind knowing i will never get stuck is well worth the money spent to get it.

I bought this. Haven't had to use it yet but at my most recent SoC 12.2V the time must be approaching.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-clippjs3-multifunction-micro-jump-start/

 

 

 

[CPN]

41 minutes ago, MCatPG said:

I bought this. Haven't had to use it yet but at my most recent SoC 12.2V the time must be approaching.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-clippjs3-multifunction-micro-jump-start/

You'll be fine. I've seen my voltage as low as 11.3v and the car has still started fine.

[anchorman]

2 hours ago, nasamorpheus said:

Toyota doesn't care.. they could start a car with hybrid battery but they choose cheaper small 12v battery 

No they can’t. 

[Eddie G]

Good points TonyHSD love the way the MK4 drives otherwise it would be an AYG0 X, as i find myself going on longer trips and ways to work at times just to make sure the 12v is topped up enough with only being a 10-15 minutes drive to work, next time an Aygo X could take my money if it drives nice? even if it has oversized wheels and something like £125 a corner tyres on it!!! 

[Max_Headroom]

On 6/22/2023 at 10:48 PM, MCatPG said:

I bought this. Haven't had to use it yet but at my most recent SoC 12.2V the time must be approaching.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-clippjs3-multifunction-micro-jump-start/

That looks the business like the Swiss army knife of jump starters. 

[Max_Headroom]

I had an Aygo x as a loan car not a bad car but the dash is a bit of a mess. 

 

[Yugguy1970]

On 6/19/2023 at 1:29 PM, Yaris Hybrid 2021 said:

https://www.skoda.co.uk/new-cars/fabia/hatch-monte-carlo
 

 

They are nice cars and if you no longer trust the Yaris then yep, get rid as it's no fun owning a car you don't have confidence in.

I had a really nice brand new Focus stlx but the high pressure fuel pump died when it was 6 months old and stranded me, the rear shocks leaked, the door rubber seals came off, so although it was nice to drive I was glad to get rid too.

[CruxisCore]

I've been eyeballing the Telwin Drive 9000 and Noco GB20 (or GB40). 

These hybrids don't need much amps, so much of these are absolutely overkill for jump starting these Toyotas. However, if I'm gonna pay a 100€ or whatever and have it in the car and remember to charge it occasionally, I'd prefer that it's capable enough to help out a fellow road user (or the wifey) who drives an ICE car and that requires a bit more from the device than these hybrid Toyotas. In -20 celsius you are only gonna a few attempts to crank that 2,5 litre Volvo with a small device, if even that.

And remember, as tempting it is to put in under the boot floor, it's the most inconvenient place to access if your Battery is dead and the electronically controlled boot door won't open 😄

 

 

[anchorman]

6 hours ago, Eddie G said:

Good points TonyHSD love the way the MK4 drives otherwise it would be an AYG0 X, as i find myself going on longer trips and ways to work at times just to make sure the 12v is topped up enough with only being a 10-15 minutes drive to work, next time an Aygo X could take my money if it drives nice? even if it has oversized wheels and something like £125 a corner tyres on it!!! 

You don’t have to drive long distances if you can leave it in the READY mode for 30 minutes and lock it with the second key.