E10 petrol for hybrid engine, or not?

[Red_Corolla]

The trouble with these kind of comparisons is that mpg is so easily affected by so many different factors. You really want the average of several tankfulls all taken from the same filling station and then another set with the other fuel in order to make a plausible comparison. The usage pattern and the ambient temperature need to be reasonably consistent for the duration of the whole exercise, too.

[Cyker]

Yeah, my normal mpg fluctuates enough to mask such a relatively small difference; Only way to know is by comparing long term averages as you say...

 

[nielshm]

If we really would see if expensive fuel E5, 98 octane, Premium brand, etc.... make any difference, we should ask our wifes to fill up the car. And not knowing wich brand and fuel type they would choose. 

I think we gets struck by a placebo effect. We really want this expensive highly special fuel to be MUCH BETTER than the regular stuff, that we try to get the best out of it. 

So without knowing it, we actually changes the way we drive. Maybe in a more economical matter, or we push a little harder if we search for power. Result: 8 out of 10 can fell or measure a pretty good improvement. 

But what if our wifes filled up the car? Maybe with V-power from a nice good looking petrol station, OR maybe with crappy low budget fuel from a supermarket carpark? How many of us could tell the difference?? 

--------

And I use the "good stuff" my self. Never supermarket fuel, and if I'm going through Europe, I buy the very best the gas station can offer, just to be safe.

And I can feel it. Of course I can. It's my car, I'm the driver. I know about theese things, my wife does'nt. I just forget that all day long, nonstop drives burn away soot  and other stuff. And that's the main reason for a better feeling, not the fuel it self. 

[Catlover]

9 hours ago, Auris2010 said:

Been using E10 shell fuel save on my Corolla 2L, since it became available. I used to fill up with V power as well. Not much of a difference really in terms of performance. I only noticed  that im getting better MPG on E10 compared to Vpower. I used to get just between 48-55mpg on VP and now with E10 im averaging above 55- 60mpg.

How long ago did the E10 become available to you?  
I ask because whilst pump operators were instructed to put E10 stickers on their pumps, that didn’t automatically mean E10 fuel was actually in the pump.

[Red_Corolla]

Remember that the 2.0 engine in the hybrid Corolla is a very different beast with it's fancy fuel injection system using  two sets of injectors. The results of these experiments may differ between the two power units.

[TonyHSD]

Honestly I can always sense when my car drives better and it’s from the fuel even when filled up same exact type 95 from two different garages and sometimes even with 99 not necessarily performance will be better, I had few times worse than regular petrol, I don’t look for it just noticed immediately.  Now second fill up from BP 95 e10 and mpg is slightly better (+3mpg) 4.5ltr/100km vs 4.7ltr/100km) than 99 Tesco E5 previously but the car doesn’t drives as good. Next fill up will be back to Tesco 99 E5 for reference. I try to smell the bp 95 today and it seems to me less aromatic than before. 

[olddriver]

On 9/3/2021 at 12:09 PM, AndrueC said:

 

* Growing human food to give it to vehicles seems wrong to me when so many people are going hungry. It will also increase pressure on land resources leading to more environmental harm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol#Production

"Ethanol is produced both as a petrochemical, through the hydration of ethylene and, via biological processes, by fermenting sugars with yeast.^[89] Which process is more economical depends on prevailing prices of petroleum and grain feed stocks. In the 1970s most industrial ethanol in the United States was made as a petrochemical, but in the 1980s the United States introduced subsidies for corn-based ethanol and today it is almost all made from that source."

Some people think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages but I doubt it. I think that E10 is more about being seen to do something without actually having to do anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel#Environment

Agreed, this is an extract from the dailymail, which I know has some suspect reporting, but makes some additional points about E10 production:-

 “Ethanol might be touted as a green bio-fuel that produces lower carbon emissions, but as Mario Loyola, a former director at the White House Council on Environmental Quality points out, the ‘greener, cleaner’ claims deliberately ignore all the pollution that is produced during ethanol’s production.

Corn does not grow itself. Huge amounts of fossil fuel are required to plant, feed and harvest it.

Then the corn has to be transported and processed chemically to produce each gallon of ethanol. 

This all produces high emissions of eco-damaging ozone, particulates and sulphur oxide.

What’s more, the vast use of nitrogen-based fertilisers to grow the corn releases high levels of nitrogen oxide into the atmosphere.

This chemical not only destroys ozone but has a higher greenhouse effect than carbon dioxide.

This is why, back in 2011, the U.S. National Academy of Science warned that when the total impacts of producing corn ethanol are added together, the fuel may prove worse for the climate than petrol.

What’s more, turning land used for food-production over to ethanol-producing corn ultimately causes food scarcities that push up the price of our everyday meals.

‘As a result of ethanol-growing, the price of all foods, not just those directly related to corn, increases,’ says Loyola.

Because the U.S. is the world’s largest exporter of food, food prices increase all over the world.’

Moreover, the destruction of virgin natural habitats to farm more biofuels has dramatically accelerated our global biodiversity crisis.

So who is ethanol good for? Loyola, the former White House environment expert, argues that ‘its sole beneficiaries are large agricultural corporations — and the politicians who serve them’. “

The above is taken from:-

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9949311/Will-new-type-petrol-wreck-car-JOHN-NAISH-says-eco-credentials-arent-seem.html

[olddriver]

An RAC guy on TV said that E10 can damage the seals etc of older cars.  The government website says that almost all Toyota European cars made from January 1998 are cleared for use with E10, see the attached.

My Corolla was made in September 1998, so I think that I will be using E5, just to be sure, even if it is 10p a litre more.

[TonyHSD]

That’s right , corn should be used for popcorn 🍿 not petrol ⛽️ 🤣 

[AndrueC]

7 hours ago, nielshm said:

If we really would see if expensive fuel E5, 98 octane, Premium brand, etc.... make any difference, we should ask our wifes to fill up the car. And not knowing wich brand and fuel type they would choose. 

I never got married.

"How did that happen?"

Just lucky, I guess 😄

[AndrueC]

5 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

That’s right , corn should be used for popcorn 🍿 not petrol ⛽️ 🤣 

And Cornflakes 😉

It just seems wrong to me. The real problem is too many cars on the road, not the fuel that they use. And I'll readily admit that as a golfer my life requires me to use a car.

[Cyker]

Yeah, too many cars but we can't really complain since we are contributing to the problem ourselves!

TBH if my work didn't require me to lug loads of gear around I think I would have switched to a motorcycle by now - Those Zero EV bikes look like a lot of fun! But also I drive in London and, frankly, I don't want to die (Seeing how awful the driving standards are here I'd be too scared to go on most roads with a bike!)

It just makes those Smart Motorways even more ridiculous - If they want to encourage less car use, why open up more lanes? I tell you it hasn't made a lick of difference with the congestion, if anything it's made it worse as every minor accident requires the whole motorway to be closed for hours! (And that's if the morons monitoring the cameras even notice!)

Or maybe that's the idea - Make the motorway more dangerous to try and cull the motorists!

 

[Luke717]

I've currently got a petrol tank that's 72% full according to the MyT app. That's all Shell V-Power since I filled up a few weeks ago. Keen to try the E10 but I'll wait until the tank is around 25%. Then, maybe, a few more fill ups over the next few months so that eventually the tank will have just E10 in it. Just one fill up is unlikely to show anything meaningful.

With a long-ish trip next week and another the week after, that might be as soon as late September.

Seems to be a lot of confusion out there about E10, not really helped by mainstream media reporting that only recycles the same reports https://www.google.com/search?q=e10+fuel+uk

[TonyHSD]

Haha cornflakes., so me and my car having the same food but different form 🤣👍🎂 

 

[Cyker]

Yeah, a lot of scaremongering over E10. It's not great but they're really overblowing the issues, but that's modern journalism for you - Why be balanced and factual when you can go full sensationalist?

Damnit all this talk of cornflakes and popcorn is making me hungry... If I start thinking about food every time I refuel the car with E10 I'm blaming you lot!!

 

[Luke717]

Today I topped up the tank with 18 litres of regular unleaded - the 'Shell Unleaded' pump is labelled 'E10' but is it yet, I don't know - at the Shell station in Newbury on the A4 outskirts going west, instead of the usual V-Power premium. £1.37 a litre vs £1.52, I guess I should pay attention to these prices and differentials!

In addition, I noticed for the first time that inside the fuel filler cap on the Corolla is a sticker that says E5 E10. I never noticed that before! It's been there since I bought the car in June 2020. So the 'okay' sign is on the car itself as well as on the government website.

Brilliant observation 🤠

[TonyHSD]

Thanks for sharing. I don’t think it’s a problem to use E10 but in my opinion the car will prefer 99 E5, I am coming into this conclusion after I run two tanks of 95 E10 recently acceleration is noticeably slower and engine its unpleasantly noisier. Now will run to almost empty and will fill up with 99 to confirm my statement that the car likes premium  99 E5 more. 👍

[Luke717]

3 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Thanks for sharing. I don’t think it’s a problem to use E10 but in my opinion the car will prefer 99 E5, I am coming into this conclusion after I run two tanks of 95 E10 recently acceleration is noticeably slower and engine its unpleasantly noisier. Now will run to almost empty and will fill up with 99 to confirm my statement that the car likes premium  99 E5 more. 👍

That's my view as well, Tony, the reason why I've filled my car only with Shell V-Power since new. But we're in a new world now where emissions, pollution, health, the environment, etc, are all things thrust into our consciousness on the journey to alternate fuel. So I'm willing to give it a shot.

If both the government and Toyota say E10 is okay for my Corolla, what could possibly go wrong?

[Red_Corolla]

Government website says to expect a small mpg reduction in the order of 1%, so the net reduction in environmental damage should be in the order of 4% compared to the old E5.
That's if they're telling the truth. If we lose as much as 5% fuel economy (say 3-4mpg) then the benefit becomes bugger all.

[50p]

Hmm, 'government' and 'truth' and so close together! 😉

[Konrad C]

On 9/4/2021 at 9:30 AM, olddriver said:

An RAC guy on TV said that E10 can damage the seals etc of older cars.  The government website says that almost all Toyota European cars made from January 1998 are cleared for use with E10, see the attached.

 

My Corolla was made in September 1998, so I think that I will be using E5, just to be sure, even if it is 10p a litre more.

Here is a bit of logic. All petrol cars have been using E5 fuel for quite a while. That means there has been up to 5% ethanol in the fuel for years. Take away the running characteristics and looking at how it attacks the seals, E10 fuel has up to 5% extra ethanol. So using my simple logic, the seals will have twice the exposure to ethanol over time, than E5. So the seals should wear twice as fast. But the way it is explained, the seals will wear very fast! There are seal replacement kits, hopefully for the much older engines. 
Strange that the only recent engines not compatible are the direct injection AZ engines!

[TonyHSD]

I think for the direct injection engines some issues may arise after combustion since these inject fuel under higher pressures and as results a highly corrosive acids been produced that can cause damage to catalytic converters, sensors, egr system etc., plus the other risk along the fuel lines starting from fuel tanks to the injectors themselves. Tbh in many countries E10 been used for years without big problems at first sight, but we don’t really know what used car owners had been going through., we will eventually find out with the time. 

[Dancing Badger]

I have concerns about E10 - but only because I have a classic car, a 1961 Hillman Minx and it decidedly isn't compatible with E10. The Prius is designed to be compatible with E10. Toyota's biggest market for the Prius is the USA, where they've had E10 for years. Also they've had it in Europe for some years - pre Covid I drove around 2500 - 3000 miles a year in Europe (and 12000 or so in the UK), in my Prius and before that in my Auris hybrid and gen 3 Prius, I just fill up with regular unleaded, whatever is available, never noticed any difference. I see no point whatsoever in having an economical hybrid car and spending an extra five or ten quid a tank on petrol which is intended for high performance cars and isn't actually required for mine - any performance or economy enhancement derived from using super grade petrol won't come near compensating for the additional cost.

The other issue is that not all filling stations have the super grade on their forecourt. And this IS an issue for me - I wouldn't mind so much paying the extra for super grade for my Minx as I do less than 1000 miles a year in it so it's not going to be that much of an additional cost, but as my two nearest filling stations don't have super unleaded I did the research. I have changed my lead replacement additive for one with corrosion inhibitors intended to protect against the effects of E10 (and chosen one endorsed by the Federation of Historic British Vehicle Clubs who confirm that it does what it says it does) and last Sunday I changed the diaphragm and valves in my petrol pump as they were rubber, I've replaced them with new parts made out of an E10 resistant plastic. And here's the thing about seals and gaskets - E10 can cause damage to certain flexible components used in some cars, but there are alternative materials which are resistant to the tendency of ethanol to diffuse into their structure causing swelling and subsequent shrinkage, and these are what are used in E10 compatible cars.

In case anybody is wondering the additive I have is not compatible with our hybrids - it can't be used with catalytic convertors, although there are additives which can be.

I have no concerns about E10 in my Prius.

[Yugguy1970]

Excellent answer Mick, cheers.

I might use the odd tank of super but more for the cleaning than anything else.

[rickywales]

I have been using E10 in my 2011 Avensis 1.8 in Finland for the last 6 months and my average consumption is 42mpg