PHEV v EV.

[Cyker]

21 minutes ago, Stopeter44 said:

Many people won't do more than say 100 miles on any given day, for the most part it would be the daily commute and/or puttering around for shopping. For a two car household, one EV makes a lot of sense, and especially if home charging is not a problem. For my daily needs an EV would be fine, but we are a 1 car family, so the occasional 200 ± roundtrip makes me nervous. I don't need or want a car bigger than a Yaris, and the Zoes and E-208s just don't have the range to calm my anxiety. 

 

I'm in exactly the same quandary!

Want an EV, don't want a giant land boat, want to be able to visit my brothers and friends without having to extend the already lengthy journeys by having to charge on the way up and back (Extra hours I could sped actually hanging out with them and not staring at a meter ticking up)

It's nice for those people who have so much excess funds they can afford multiple cars, but I am just one guy. I've never thought it reasonable to own a different car for town driving, long distance driving, trips to the dump, trips to the seaside, trips to the shops - I have always only had one car and I always expect it to do all of those things - My Mk1 did everything - Daily commute and site-to site travel, shopping, visits to friends, transporting friends to events and back, carry stuff to the dump, carry stuff to brother's wedding, carry beer back from brother's wedding (And that was an f'ing lot of beer!  ). I consider EVs unfit for purpose until they can match that utility.

For me the minimum target is 300 miles of motorway range - That's about as far as I can drive in one go without needing to take a break, so since I'd be stopping anyway I wouldn't mind letting the car charge for half an hour or so.

I'm very glad I bought the Mk4 as so far nobody is even close to achieving that with a Yaris-sized car (And even the Yaris has gotten a bit chubbier since I got my first one! Was 3.6m long and 950kg, is now 4m and 1100kg!  )

 

[philip42h]

51 minutes ago, Goinker said:

When I last looked at EV's not long ago, there were apparently no less than 11 different plug/socket configurations in use on different brands of cars. There needs to be a worldwide agreement on establishing one standard type for universal fitting........I won't hold my breath!

There are currently 140 EV models available to order - 128 of these use a Type 2 CCS charge socket. So there already is a de facto standard in the UK - you can breathe ... 😉 

[philip42h]

5 minutes ago, Cyker said:

For me the cut-off spot is 300 miles of motorway range - That's about as far as I can drive in one go without needing to take a break, so since I'd be stopping anyway I wouldn't mind letting the car charge for half an hour or so.

Snap! Exactly so! So we are looking for a realistic 300 mile range and a recharge speed of around 600 mph. To be honest, I'd settle for a good 200+ mile range and a recharge speed of around 600 mph. The Ioniq 5 and EV6 meet that requirement today - just need to shrink them a bit and halve the price ... AND put the necessary charging infrastructure in place ... 😉

[Cyker]

TBH I lean towards more Battery capacity specifically because I *don't* want to use rapid chargers regularly, and because higher capacity batteries are more resilient - What nobody tells you is that these high currant rapid chargers irreparably damage the Battery slightly every time you use them, and the smaller the Battery the more damage it takes. 50kW has negligible impact but above that the battery gets more and more degradation. It's not a lot, but it adds up over time.

Tesla noticed this early on and programmed their superchargers to ease off charging speed if the car has had lots of rapid charging, and if the battery is at a low or high charge, as that's apparently where the most damage occurs (In the middle is where you can charge at the fastest rate).

They will actually block a car from rapid-charging if they see it's had a lot of rapid charging, as in the beginning it was costing them loads of money on premature battery pack replacements.

The reason I want 300 miles is so that even in winter I know I can get to my friends/brother's and back without having to charge and with a healthy buffer for road closure diversions and such, and can let the car slowly charge back up over the weekend.

Doing an occasional rapid charge is fine, but if you do it every time the battery's life will be a lot shorter!

 

[Stopeter44]

1 hour ago, philip42h said:

How about a Kia Soul EV? (hypothetically) It's at least Yaris sized but not much larger (I think). Real world range is 225 miles so your occasional 200 mile round trip shouldn't be a worry ...

On paper it would work, it's longer than the Yaris, but within the limits our garage would accept. I won't switch to EV yet, though. I think that 3-5 years down the road, Range will be twice as much and Charging twice as fast. Solar panels will be cheaper, too.

[Stopeter44]

52 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Tesla noticed this early on and programmed their superchargers to ease off charging speed if the car has had lots of rapid charging, and if the battery is at a low or high charge, as that's apparently where the most damage occurs (In the middle is where you can charge at the fastest rate).

 

Toyota are smart with their latest Traction batteries (HVB ?) , I was informed by the dealer that they operate between 20% and 80% charge, IIRC.

[Stopeter44]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

It's nice for those people who have so much excess funds they can afford multiple cars, but I am just one guy. I've never thought it reasonable to own a different car for town driving, long distance driving, trips to the dump, trips to the seaside, trips to the shops - I have always only had one car and I always expect it to do all of those things - My Mk1 did everything - Daily commute and site-to site travel, shopping, visits to friends, transporting friends to events and back, carry stuff to the dump, carry stuff to brother's wedding, carry beer back from brother's wedding (And that was an f'ing lot of beer!  ). I consider EVs unfit for purpose until they can match that utility.

For me the minimum target is 300 miles of motorway range - That's about as far as I can drive in one go without needing to take a break, so since I'd be stopping anyway I wouldn't mind letting the car charge for half an hour or so.

I'm very glad I bought the Mk4 as so far nobody is even close to achieving that with a Yaris-sized car (And even the Yaris has gotten a bit chubbier since I got my first one! Was 3.6m long and 950kg, is now 4m and 1100kg!  )

 

I did have two cars at the same time, once. They were in different countries, though, and separated by a big chunk of Ocean. One of them was a Toyota. In those days, I had little sense, and no wife. I can't even do 150 miles at a stretch, not in my present car, at least. I managed 200+ with a Hyundai Sonata rental, though, so it's down to the seating position which I have never been able to get "just right".

I would be prepared to make some concessions for an EV, such as easy access & tariffs for ICE/HEV/PHEV rental for much longer trips. Where I live it's not impossible, but not easy as someone living near to a significant airport or railway station, where the major car rental companies operate.

Then there's the administrative hassle of it, you either have to find somebody to drive your car back to your house or be able to park it securely at a reasonable cost where you hired the car.

[Lawnmowerman]

On 10/2/2021 at 4:47 PM, Rigsby said:

Don’t get me started on the government’s proposal to ban gas boilers and replace them with Air Source Heat Pumps.

Ive worked in the Heating industry for 50 years mostly as a design engineer, they will not work if retrofitted for a number of reasons.

Interesting. Our new build house (9 years ago) has an Air Source Heat Pump. It is economic and drives our wet radiator central heating system which keeps us warm when the mercury has went as low as -15c. In saying that, the radiators are enormous given the lower temperature generated by the system.

However, having read all the manuals it has not been installed strictly as Mitsubishi state. It is obviously installed with our keen winters in mind and achieves its purpose at an economical cost.

Sorry to go off topic.

 

[Cyker]

3 hours ago, Stopeter44 said:

On paper it would work, it's longer than the Yaris, but within the limits our garage would accept. I won't switch to EV yet, though. I think that 3-5 years down the road, Range will be twice as much and Charging twice as fast. Solar panels will be cheaper, too.

Yeah, that's why I'm sitting and waiting too - There's no advantage in jumping onto the EV bandwagon early; My car is a work horse, so I like to let the leisure people deal with all the problems first! Must admit I thought we'd be further along than we are right now tho'!!

 

3 hours ago, Stopeter44 said:

Toyota are smart with their latest Traction batteries (HVB ?) , I was informed by the dealer that they operate between 20% and 80% charge, IIRC.

They were very smart! I think even from the original Prius they realised the key to extending the life of the Battery was keeping it in a middling level of charge. My Mk4 almost religiously tries to keep the SoC as close to 50% as it can which bodes well for its long term health.

EV's don't have this luxury tho' - The only way to do that is by restricting the usable charge. Manufacturers like Tesla, who bothered to study such things, left a large Battery buffer so it would never get anywhere near 0% or 100%,  sacrificing a lot of potential range to do so, but extending the life of the Battery. However, some others did not, which is why their cars are now having so many premature battery problems. When you see an EV which has a lot more range than its competitors on the same capacity battery, alarm bells should ring while you should wonder how they're doing that!

It's one reason I'm disappointed with super capacitors, as with this massive handicap I thought they'd be able to compete with lithium, since supercaps can be used from 0-100% all day long and as much fast-charging as you like without any degradation, but even that advantage hasn't been able to get them anywhere near a useful capacity vs chemical batteries.

 

[Rigsby]

7 minutes ago, Lawnmowerman said:

Interesting. Our new build house (9 years ago) has an Air Source Heat Pump. It is economic and drives our wet radiator central heating system which keeps us warm when the mercury has went as low as -15c. In saying that, the radiators are enormous given the lower temperature generated by the system.

However, having read all the manuals it has not been installed strictly as Mitsubishi state. It is obviously installed with our keen winters in mind and achieves its purpose at an economical cost.

Sorry to go off topic.

 

Which is why I said that they can’t just replace (retrofit) a gas boiler, it won’t work.

You’ve touched on one of the main problems, the water temperature generated by an ASHP is much lower (45-50 deg C) than a gas / oil boiler (Non condensing around 80 deg C) therefore all the radiators and possibly pipe work would need greatly increasing in size.

Hot water in a cylinder should be stored above 60 deg C to prevent legionella, obviously this can’t be achieved with an ASHP alone so additional hot water heating will be required.

ASHP’s work well with UFH which requires lower temperatures than a traditional wet system, but can be very expensive and very difficult to install in some properties.

Poorly designed / installed systems can be very expensive to run.

ASHP’s, particularly in smaller, terraced homes and apartments can be bulky and noisy as they need to be fitted externally.

[Lawnmowerman]

3 minutes ago, Rigsby said:

Which is why I said that they can’t just replace (retrofit) a gas boiler, it won’t work.

You’ve touched on one of the main problems, the water temperature generated by an ASHP is much lower (45-50 deg C) than a gas / oil boiler (Non condensing around 80 deg C) therefore all the radiators and possibly pipe work would need greatly increasing in size.

Hot water in a cylinder should be stored above 60 deg C to prevent legionella, obviously this can’t be achieved with an ASHP alone so additional hot water heating will be required.

ASHP’s work well with UFH which requires lower temperatures than a traditional wet system, but can be very expensive and very difficult to install in some properties.

Poorly designed / installed systems can be very expensive to run.

ASHP’s, particularly in smaller, terraced homes and apartments can be bulky and noisy as they need to be fitted externally.

Yes, it has an electric element to boost the tank temperature where necessary.

[Heidfirst]

4 minutes ago, Rigsby said:

all the radiators and possibly pipe work would need greatly increasing in size.

 

all the houses built with microbore would need that replacing for heat pumps - it all adds to the cost

[Flatcoat]

My sister hash ASHP installed in her 40 year old house out in the sticks south of Inverness. In winter They still need to use a multi fuel stove to get truly warm and below -5C the system draws on the grid as the efficacy of the ASHP rapidly declines. They too have ginormous rads which are at best warm but never hot. We live in a 170 year old converted building (former village blacksmiths) with solid stone walls approx 14” thick. Adding insulation is nigh on impossible and prohibitively expensive over and above the costs of the ASHP. If Boris, XR and co continue with their Eco nonsense and raising costs and taxes to pay for it, there will be social unrest in this country the likes of which we have not seen. 

[IanML]

The technique to add insulation to the walls of stone buildings is to fix battens to the inside of the walls and attach insulation boarding to the battens.  Apply the same treatment to the recesses for windows, etc.  You lose the stonework feature on the inside walls, but you keep lovely and warm, and you don't waste valuable energy heating all the stone.  And your heirs will not be washed away by catastrophic flooding caused by the unbelievable weather that would follow if climate change is not arrested.

[Flatcoat]

I am an Architect of 46 years experience so don’t tell me how to suck eggs. And where does the money come from to rip everything out to do such work? Could you afford to do that to your home? And multiply that cost across the 100’s of 1000’s of such homes with solid walls in the UK?  And so China carries on building coal fired power stations we bankrupt ourselves and have families unable to afford heating. That is a great policy, there will be severe repercussions from the electorate. You can’t arrest climate change - it has been with the planet since it was created. The arrogance of man knows no bounds. 

[Nick72]

On 10/3/2021 at 12:40 PM, Cyker said:

I'm in exactly the same quandary!

Want an EV, don't want a giant land boat, want to be able to visit my brothers and friends without having to extend the already lengthy journeys by having to charge on the way up and back (Extra hours I could sped actually hanging out with them and not staring at a meter ticking up)

It's nice for those people who have so much excess funds they can afford multiple cars, but I am just one guy. I've never thought it reasonable to own a different car for town driving, long distance driving, trips to the dump, trips to the seaside, trips to the shops - I have always only had one car and I always expect it to do all of those things - My Mk1 did everything - Daily commute and site-to site travel, shopping, visits to friends, transporting friends to events and back, carry stuff to the dump, carry stuff to brother's wedding, carry beer back from brother's wedding (And that was an f'ing lot of beer!  ). I consider EVs unfit for purpose until they can match that utility.

For me the minimum target is 300 miles of motorway range - That's about as far as I can drive in one go without needing to take a break, so since I'd be stopping anyway I wouldn't mind letting the car charge for half an hour or so.

I'm very glad I bought the Mk4 as so far nobody is even close to achieving that with a Yaris-sized car (And even the Yaris has gotten a bit chubbier since I got my first one! Was 3.6m long and 950kg, is now 4m and 1100kg!  )

 

Same. But 300 miles (well, I'd settle for say 270) of winter motorway range. That's often just 60pc fo 65pc of the claimed range. So, we might really be looking for a 420 mile range car. Few years off.

[ernieb]

Looking at some of he claimed and actual figures when I was making my choice of new car the discrepancies wee sometimes massive between spec'd and actual real life.  At least with the PHEV I'm actually getting what was spec'd. 

[Nick72]

6 hours ago, ernieb said:

Looking at some of he claimed and actual figures when I was making my choice of new car the discrepancies wee sometimes massive between spec'd and actual real life.  At least with the PHEV I'm actually getting what was spec'd. 

On lots of Short trips averaging 10mph. Pre heating off the Battery. Air con on high. I'm still getting about 40 miles. 8C here. That's pretty good. 

Was seeing over 50 when it was warm and air con off.

[ernieb]

2 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

On lots of Short trips averaging 10mph. Pre heating off the battery. Air con on high. I'm still getting about 40 miles. 8C here. That's pretty good. 

Was seeing over 50 when it was warm and air con off.

That’s not bad for short trips and I’m also finding I’m still clocking up pretty good range even with a few short trips.  I leave the Battery heating/cooling on and the heating/AC is always on.  I need my comfort I just wish the car had the heated steering wheel as I suffer from Raynaud’s disease, always cold hands and feet and painful in the colder weather.

[IanML]

41 minutes ago, ernieb said:

.... I just wish the car had the heated steering wheel as I suffer from Raynaud’s disease, always cold hands and feet and painful in the colder weather.

You'd probably enjoy my KIA SoulEV - heated steering wheel and very quick heat pump, plus heated front seats (two levels, but I never use the higher).

[Flatcoat]

The PHEV spec is odd. The HEV in Excel gets heated steering wheel, the PHEV in Dynamic Premium with lots of bells and whistles doesn't…… similar with headlight washers. 

[Nick72]

5 hours ago, ernieb said:

That’s not bad for short trips and I’m also finding I’m still clocking up pretty good range even with a few short trips.  I leave the battery heating/cooling on and the heating/AC is always on.  I need my comfort I just wish the car had the heated steering wheel as I suffer from Raynaud’s disease, always cold hands and feet and painful in the colder weather.

Sorry to hear that Ernie. Heated wheel definitely help.