Supermarket Fuel

[Mojo1010]

11 hours ago, MikeSh said:

With what?

What Roy said regarding alcohol seems plausible. 

[MikeSh]

1 hour ago, Mojo1010 said:

What Roy said regarding alcohol seems plausible. 

That's not really any cheaper than petrol though.

The practicalities are a bit mind boggling too. Assuming they weren't doing this at the refinery the garage must have been buying alcohol in bulk and putting it in the tanks. Since garages get random visits from government inspectors there would be a massive risk of being caught with the wrong stuff being dispensed.

[anchorman]

I doubt anyone is diluting fuel although it might seem like that.  I feel like I’m reading one of those dreadful Which reports that concentrate on which washing machine has the prettiest knobs rather than how the thing washes.  There’s more to high grade fuel than economy gains.  If you are going to change on a 3 year pcp, put supermarket weasel pee in it but if you intend keeping it any length of time you will protect the injectors and the EGR, GPF and all the other fuel/emission related components because it’s loaded with detergent and other additives.  The higher octane level also gives scope to advance the timing without the knock sensor going off its head and it will run smoother and quieter.  You can expect some moderate gains in economy but it’s the hidden stuff that’s more important to me.  

[skidlid]

2 minutes ago, anchorman said:

There’s more to high grade fuel than economy gains.  If you are going to change on a 3 year pcp, put supermarket weasel pee in it but if you intend keeping it any length of time you will protect the injectors and the EGR, GPF and all the other fuel/emission related components because it’s loaded with detergent and other additives.

We have run our cars on Supermarket "weasel pee" pretty much exclusively since the 1980's when Asda opened a petrol station in town. In all this years (at least 35) we have not had a single issue. The longest we kept a petrol car was 8 years and it was running well the day the buyer drove it away as it did the day we took delivery. The longest we kept a diesel car was almost 7 years and as with the petrol it was running just as well when we PX'd it as it did when new. The most miles I have done in a car from new was 113,000. Tried 98 RON for a few weeks but it did nothing for the car at all, all it did was harm my wallet, went back to Asda. Last saw that car when it was 26 years old with just over 200,000 miles on the clock and the owner said it was still running great (obviously I have no idea what had been done to it over the 19 years - 87,000 miles after I sold but the owner said it was its brothers before him and it had never been an issue.

Do what you want but please don't keep telling people that the fuel grade recommended by all manufacturers for their "normal" models will harm them when it won't. People have enough budget issues without wasting money on expensive and pointless fuel.

[anchorman]

8 minutes ago, skidlid said:

We have run our cars on Supermarket "weasel pee" pretty much exclusively since the 1980's when Asda opened a petrol station in town. In all this years (at least 35) we have not had a single issue. The longest we kept a petrol car was 8 years and it was running well the day the buyer drove it away as it did the day we took delivery. The longest we kept a diesel car was almost 7 years and as with the petrol it was running just as well when we PX'd it as it did when new. The most miles I have done in a car from new was 113,000. Tried 98 RON for a few weeks but it did nothing for the car at all, all it did was harm my wallet, went back to Asda. Last saw that car when it was 26 years old with just over 200,000 miles on the clock and the owner said it was still running great (obviously I have no idea what had been done to it over the 19 years - 87,000 miles after I sold but the owner said it was its brothers before him and it had never been an issue.

Do what you want but please don't keep telling people that the fuel grade recommended by all manufacturers for their "normal" models will harm them when it won't. People have enough budget issues without wasting money on expensive and pointless fuel.

You do what you want but your entire post shows your ignorance.  You haven’t run Euro 6 engined cars on supermarket fuel for 40 years because they didn’t exist.  I run a number of forums where there are constant problems with car emission and fuel system problems that are dramatically improved by using premium fuel.  It doesn’t exist to irritate those who think they know better, it exists for a reason.  I made it perfectly clear that it doesn’t happen overnight but it is a ticking bomb for gummed up injectors, HP pumps and emission systems.  What you do is absolutely up to you - I don’t care and I won’t stop quoting facts because it makes you feel better.  

[TonyHSD]

If you know your car you don’t need someone to tell you how it drives and how engine sounds, work and accelerate with different fuels. 
The difference it’s real but some people can’t notice it. 

[Mojo1010]

50 minutes ago, MikeSh said:

That's not really any cheaper than petrol though.

The practicalities are a bit mind boggling too. Assuming they weren't doing this at the refinery the garage must have been buying alcohol in bulk and putting it in the tanks. Since garages get random visits from government inspectors there would be a massive risk of being caught with the wrong stuff being dispensed.

Perhaps you can give an educated guess on this. 1/3 less economy with similar driving conditions at this fuel station, other fuel stations resumed normal economy. Anyway after 3-4 fills of £10, had to say no more from there. 

[Eddiefh]

 

[skidlid]

58 minutes ago, anchorman said:

You do what you want but your entire post shows your ignorance.

Please don't call me ignorant. That is a very poor argument.

If you took a simple look at the number of cars on the road running on 95 RON E10 supermarket fuel with no issues you would realise that there is not a real issue with this fuel, its all in the mind of a few members.

As for my ignorance I have mapped a car myself from scratch and that was in 2005, its still running fine. Have you ever done that? The car in question was originally on carbs and when I converted it to a modern motor and fitted injection the supposed correct map was in truth way out and that was obvious to me. I still have the software and other kit but once it was done its never needed touching.

I have way more practical experience than most on this forum.

[Mjolinor]

18 minutes ago, skidlid said:

I have way more practical experience than most on this forum.

That is a very bold statement.

My personal view is that there is no difference no matter where you buy your petrol. It is too well legislated by the paper pushers and it is too expensive to produce different blends for different point of sale places. It all comes from very few actual cracking plants spread about the country.

[MikeSh]

1 hour ago, Mjolinor said:

and it is too expensive to produce different blends for different point of sale places. It all comes from very few actual cracking plants spread about the country.

Well, no and yes. The refineries produce all the ingredients but the blending is usually done at the road tanker filling depot where the specific recipe for the customer is put into each tank within the tanker. A typical tanker could be carrying regular, premium and derv at the same time. (I think they usually have 5 or 6 tanks within what we see.)

It's possible that the problem mojo says he had with one fuel station fill was an error - recipe wrong or tanker driver put it in the wrong tank at the garage (it has happened).

[anchorman]

2 hours ago, skidlid said:

Please don't call me ignorant. That is a very poor argument.

If you took a simple look at the number of cars on the road running on 95 RON E10 supermarket fuel with no issues you would realise that there is not a real issue with this fuel, its all in the mind of a few members.

As for my ignorance I have mapped a car myself from scratch and that was in 2005, its still running fine. Have you ever done that? The car in question was originally on carbs and when I converted it to a modern motor and fitted injection the supposed correct map was in truth way out and that was obvious to me. I still have the software and other kit but once it was done its never needed touching.

I have way more practical experience than most on this forum.

adjective

• 1.lacking knowledge or awareness in general.  

It wasn’t referring to your manner.  It does refer to your lack of knowledge because you’re back to 2005 when it really didn’t matter what fuel you used.  If you apply that to a Euro 6 vehicle you’ll come unstuck eventually.  You’re not helping anybody by ignoring the advice.  I personally don’t care what you use, only you will need to sort it out.  As for knowledge and experience, don’t worry about me.  

[inteli7]

Before owning my Toyota Yaris 2014 MK3 Hybrid (which I got in April 2023), I had a Vauxhall Corsa E 1.4 Petrol from 2017, which was a manual 5-speed. I serviced the car 3 times a year at intervals of 7,000 miles using the same oil and filters. 

P.S. I Got the car in March 2019 when it had 15,000 miles and sold it in April 2023 at 80,000 miles. (the Corsa)

Throughout the 3 years of commuting to the same job on the M3, I changed the tyres and stayed with the same brand and model. So overall, everything was kept the same. So, I can safely say nothing major was changed in this whole chain/cycle. That included the petrol, which was/is still from Costco. I regularly get my petrol from Costco as it is close to me.

On average, I used to drive 410 miles a week, and occasionally (maybe once every 3 weeks), that would go to 500-600.

Between 2019 and August 2021, I was on the standard E5 petrol found at that time. I gave it a shot when the new E10 was introduced in September 2021. A few tanks later of E10, I noticed a difference in performance, MPG and how the car generally felt. 

For example, my MPG on a summer day with the AC on was 47.8MPG with an average speed of 77mph over an 80-mile commute. (before the new E10 was introduced in September 2021)

A few tanks later, using standard E10, I noticed that my MPG would drop from 47.8 MPG to 42.8/43.8 MPG. Nothing in my cycle/behaviour has changed for this change this "much". 

Then a few tanks later using premium E5, (making sure all the E10 is "flushed") my MPG when back to what it was before. Not only that, but the car felt better. It would start and sound much smoother.

As Tony said, when you care and pay attention to your car, you can notice the smallest change. As long as E5 is still available, I will never go back to E10 unless E5 is not available or I need to fill up E10 as it is the only option available. 

 

Call it a placebo or anything you want, but I noticed and experienced that. I'm sure there are other benefits to using premium fuel over standard, but I am no expert in that to comment. 

 

This is more related to the E5 vs E10 fuel, not standard or premium fuel. As I cannot get Standard E5 fuel, I have to get E5 Premium 🙂

[Madasafish]

We run our 2003 Yaris d4d on the cheapest diesel available locally.

Yesterday it passed its MOT with emissions 70% below the maximum allowed.  (It is now 21 years old)

It burns no oil, the timing chain does not rattle and starts first time.

The claims for premium diesel fuel are just: claims.

[skidlid]

Here are some facts.

The wifes Fabia used 95 RON E5 petrol until the introduction of 95 RON E10 in September 2021. It was about 3 1/2 years old and had covered about 15,500 miles. My fuel spreadsheet shows that it averaged 48.45 mpg over that period.

In the 2 1/2 years since September 2021 we have only covered about 6,000 miles and have used 95 RON E10 petrol. My fuel spreadsheet shows that it has averaged 47.72 mpg over that period.

The drop in mpg is pretty small compared to the drops the doom mongers claim and I suspect some (if not all) of that is down to our reduced mileage.

It drives exactly the same today as it did before the introduction of E10 petrol.

We have a 3rd car that actually does less miles than than the Fabia.  Between October 2017 and September 2021 it used 95 RON E5 petrol.

When E10 was introduced we changed to using super duper petrol not because the engine needed it but because the fuel system had components in it that dated back to the 1980's and would potentially have been affected by the ethanol. These included seals in the fuel pump, pressure regulator and injector seals plus the tank is fabricated aluminium which can also be an issue. Whilst E5 is quite a bit more expensive the cost of chasing all the at risk components would have been far greater considering the miles we do.

On E5 95 RON before September 2021 it averaged about 35 mpg over 4,400 miles, since September 2021 its averaged about 36.5 mpg over 2,800 miles.

It runs no better and the extra mpg does not cover the extra cost despite what the "experts" say.

[Cyker]

I must admit I've not noticed enough of a difference to be bothered; Esso and BP E5 do seem to run a bit smoother but I've not noticed any significant difference in mpg.

I think if I drove less and/or gentler it might make some difference, but because I drive so much and often fairly hard I don't think any deposits get a chance to hang around  

 

In my old Mk1 D4D, I'd stick some V-Power diesel in it now and then as that, and my 'enthusiastic' driving style seemed to help stop the injectors getting crudded up. That had a fairly noticeable effect on smoothing the engine, but also lost a noticeable amount of torque at the bottom end, as well as some mpg unless I was taking it on a run.

That made sense to me, as I'd expect the super fuels to have less energy per unit in them, since they must have less fuel in order to accommodate all the extra cleaning agents, lubricity enhancers, etc..

Tried some in my dad's old Verso D4D too, but couldn't tell any difference either way in that  

[anchorman]

God I’m bored of closet experts telling me that premium fuel doesn’t make any difference to none Euro 6 cars and for those with Euro 6 cars, I’m bored of them saying they can’t tell any difference.  🥱🥱🥱

All these fuel companies clearly don’t have a clue what they’re doing and are just bobbing rastards.  They should have asked for help on car forums instead of spending a small fortune on development.  

[MikeSh]

1 hour ago, anchorman said:

All these fuel companies clearly don’t have a clue what they’re doing and are just bobbing rastards.

But they are also in the business, actually their only business, of making as much money from us as they can. So some scepticism about their end product and the marketing thereof is not unjustified.

Personally, the only petrol that damaged a car of mine in 50+ years was from Shell, so forgive me if I don't have your confidence in big oil companies.

[Roy124]

On 1/29/2024 at 12:44 PM, Mojo1010 said:

Perhaps you can give an educated guess on this. 1/3 less economy with similar driving conditions at this fuel station, other fuel stations resumed normal economy. Anyway after 3-4 fills of £10, had to say no more from there. 

Is there anything different with this garage from others?  Is it not used as often many?  Does it have multiple tanks with one group less used than others?

These could all point to stale petrol.

[anchorman]

7 hours ago, MikeSh said:

But they are also in the business, actually their only business, of making as much money from us as they can. So some scepticism about their end product and the marketing thereof is not unjustified.

Personally, the only petrol that damaged a car of mine in 50+ years was from Shell, so forgive me if I don't have your confidence in big oil companies.

There was a sticky accelerator problem with Toyotas at one time, let’s hold that against them and conclude they still do.  

[MikeSh]

1 hour ago, anchorman said:

There was a sticky accelerator problem with Toyotas at one time, let’s hold that against them and conclude they still do.  

I think the 12V Battery problems show that Toyota can still fluff it on occasions.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying only the big ones screw up at times, I view all businesses with a degree of cynicism. They are made up of humans and they sometimes make mistakes along with profits.

[dcweather]

I've not read all of the posts in this thread but you may have read in another thread that I have been a bit disappointed with my new Yaris Cross Excel re. fuel consumption, being somewhat worse than my 10 year old yaris hybrid and previous Renault Captur E-Tech. But I must stress I have only had it a month and done 600 miles. Currently I am putting it down to it not liking winter temperatures as much as the others.(+ 16" wheels on the 2014 Yaris Ion)

As a scientist I tend to go on the facts. Without doing a lot of research the RAC (who probably have) say that there is about a 3% drop in mpg between E5 and E10. So ~2 mpg. Currently E5 costs 7.5% more than E10 so from a purely economical standpoint it wouldn't make sense for me to change. Nevertheless I may try a  couple of tanks and see if it makes any noticable difference. Of course another big factor for me and a main reason for getting a hybrid is that E10 is  slightly more environmentally friendly.

[anchorman]

12 minutes ago, dcweather said:

I've not read all of the posts in this thread but you may have read in another thread that I have been a bit disappointed with my new Yaris Cross Excel re. fuel consumption, being somewhat worse than my 10 year old yaris hybrid and previous Renault Captur E-Tech. But I must stress I have only had it a month and done 600 miles. Currently I am putting it down to it not liking winter temperatures as much as the others.(+ 16" wheels on the 2014 Yaris Ion)

As a scientist I tend to go on the facts. Without doing a lot of research the RAC (who probably have) say that there is about a 3% drop in mpg between E5 and E10. So ~2 mpg. Currently E5 costs 7.5% more than E10 so from a purely economical standpoint it wouldn't make sense for me to change. Nevertheless I may try a  couple of tanks and see if it makes any noticable difference. Of course another big factor for me and a main reason for getting a hybrid is that E10 is  slightly more environmentally friendly.

I’ll repeat for the umpteenth time. It’s not about what you can see, it’s about what you can’t see.  As a scientist I thought you might appreciate that.  If we apply this stubborn logic to engine oil, why do you put 0W/8 in your engine at £70 a gallon when there’s “no noticeable difference” if you put 15W30 in at £20 a gallon?   Scientifically speaking, you f it up with time but you won’t notice it doing it.  Crack on.  

[Mojo1010]

4 hours ago, Roy124 said:

Is there anything different with this garage from others?  Is it not used as often many?  Does it have multiple tanks with one group less used than others?

These could all point to stale petrol.

Not a busy one as it's usually 3-4p more than supermarkets. 4 pump stations, so 8 sides pumps. Not sure. Was so cheesed off at one point I was going to air my dissatisfaction of their fuel to the staff, though just decide not to ever use them again instead. Petrol must have been maybe £1 then, so £10 is 10 litres, to get 40miles from an auto 1.8 is bad, can understand if its a Porsche 2.5-3L to get those miles. 

1 hour ago, dcweather said:

I've not read all of the posts in this thread but you may have read in another thread that I have been a bit disappointed with my new Yaris Cross Excel re. fuel consumption, being somewhat worse than my 10 year old yaris hybrid and previous Renault Captur E-Tech. But I must stress I have only had it a month and done 600 miles. Currently I am putting it down to it not liking winter temperatures as much as the others.(+ 16" wheels on the 2014 Yaris Ion)

As a scientist I tend to go on the facts. Without doing a lot of research the RAC (who probably have) say that there is about a 3% drop in mpg between E5 and E10. So ~2 mpg. Currently E5 costs 7.5% more than E10 so from a purely economical standpoint it wouldn't make sense for me to change. Nevertheless I may try a  couple of tanks and see if it makes any noticable difference. Of course another big factor for me and a main reason for getting a hybrid is that E10 is  slightly more environmentally friendly.

Not comparing like for like, the MK3 is a hatchback. Cyker's car is a hatchback MK4, I got the same car, no one on this forum can match his mpg. Though he haven't told u his secret......changed 17" rims to 15". As well he mentioned he used to drive in winter without the heater on to see what can be achieved, freezing his proverbial off. 

[Roy124]

Could be an isolated case of a stale tank.

Only time it is worth complaining to staff is if there is something they could actually do: paper towels,  mop up a spill, clean the bog.

If the nozzle is damaged and fuel comes at a trickle, complain and you will get their sympathy.  If the fuel is too expensive,  they should coco, their pay is the same.