12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[Roy124]

6 hours ago, Tommy X said:

charge the 12v battery, had the car for six weeks and charged at two week intervals using the jump start terminal under the bonnet 

If you don't mind, crack on.  You might consider asking the garage to fit a charging cable directly to the Battery and plug your charger in to that as required. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

12 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

Could a customer take the car back and ask for their money back because the car is not fit for purpose for low mileage drivers, surely the fact Toyota know it is an issue and do not tell  customers would give them grounds for an exchange to something that fits their needs or their money back.

The contract would be between the customer and the dealer, not the manufacturer, and any alleged mis-communication would again be between the dealer and the customer.

[Cyker]

For the sake of balance I feel the need to point out most of us aren't having 12v Battery problems...

As for taking it back, you have the standard consumer rights so you can take the car back for a full refund within (I forget if it's 14 or 30 days) for no reason; Within 6 months you can still get a full refund but you'd probably have to argue it out a bit, as I'm not sure if it's considered a problem under the rules, but I suspect a lot of dealers would take it since they can resell it easily. Past that you'd not get a full refund, as they have a right to charge a usage fee.

 

[Roy124]

29 minutes ago, Cyker said:

For the sake of balance I feel the need to point out most of us aren't having 12v battery problems...

 

True,  we just have Battery chargers, solar batteries,   battery monitors and jumper packs as well as putting the car in Ready mode for 60 minutes every 7 days. 

[RickyC]

On 7/13/2023 at 10:26 PM, FROSTYBALLS said:

As has been said several times in the past, 12v battery issues don't just affect Toyota hybrids

Probabbly the real issue is the growth of always on electronic systems in the lastest cars.  So if a 35 Ah Battery could be largely sufficient to start an old generation Hybrid car ( that has not starter motor ) it could become too limited if you have a lot of always on connected systems that need power to talk with remote servers and poll them also when car is in standby ( else you can't tell your car to start HVAC from your smartphone ). 

 

[Dala]

I had time this week and measured the parasitic draw with a clamp multimeter.  Engine off and car locked for 2 hours.  Consumption after 2 hours 210 mA.  Passenger door opening 9.48 A. Driver door opening 9.6 A. Start mode ready 15.66 A.

[Tommy X]

15 hours ago, Roy124 said:

If you don't mind, crack on.  You might consider asking the garage to fit a charging cable directly to the battery and plug your charger in to that as required. 

 

15 hours ago, Roy124 said:

If you don't mind, crack on.  You might consider asking the garage to fit a charging cable directly to the battery and plug your charger in to that as required. 

Roy, not sure what you mean by "crack on" but you seem to have a problem with the fact that I use the jump start terminal to charge the 12v Battery which I find convenient, I don't need to get my dealer to connect a lead to the Battery I a capable of doing it myself, I took the advice of my dealer which for me is a possible solution to not getting a no start, there are multiple repeat posts on this subject which haven't bothered me, we are all entitled to an opinion 

[MikeSh]

1 hour ago, Dala said:

Consumption after 2 hours 210 mA.

If that is sustained it would completely deplete a fully charged 45Ah Battery in 9 days. It would probably be unable to start the car in a couple of days less. 

[CruxisCore]

42 minutes ago, MikeSh said:

If that is sustained it would completely deplete a fully charged 45Ah battery in 9 days. It would probably be unable to start the car in a couple of days less. 

Someone found that the parasitic drain considerably drops at like 36h or something of the car not being used. I guess it kinda keeps it awake for daily driving, but if it seems thats not hte case it likely drops certain things out. So at like 99% certainty its easy to say that the drain from last use to 2h of sitting in the car with a multimeter isnt the same drain you would witness over a few days of it sitting.

That said, 9 days to deplete it (that said, all new Yaris come with 35 Ah) doesnt sound too far off from real experiences. But people have managed several weeks with no problems too, so an actual full Battery isnt being drained in several weeks. Problem is that most people dont have actually full batteries before that several week downtime before a vacation or whatnot.

On another note: I think it's completely futile to go like "my 2005 whatever could do 4 months and still start fine". Yeah, so did mine, but also my 2005 whatever had a fraction of the features I very much like to have. It's the exact same as if one was to complain like "my old Nokia from 1990s could do 2 weeks between charging and this new thing only does one day if lucky". Surely that is true, but kinda ignores the part how that 90s Nokia did nothing but calls and SMS while modern smartphones have more processing power than what they flew to moon with. I guess for now every tech comes with it's downsides. With EVs it's limited range and limited chance to quickly refill. With hybrids it's probably this, with ICE-only cars its the consumption.

[Dala]

Other parasitic drain values 37 minutes after engine off and car locked 150mA.  In 93 minutes the value is higher 160 to 180 mA.  Parasitic drain has increased. That car really does what it wants.The previous chart is from the same day.

[TopGeek]

2 hours ago, Dala said:

Other parasitic drain values 37 minutes after engine off and car locked 150mA.  In 93 minutes the value is higher 160 to 180 mA.  Parasitic drain has increased. That car really does what it wants.

 

That suggests the car electronics are continuing to run processes while apparently 'asleep'. Open to speculation!

[CruxisCore]

4 minutes ago, TopGeek said:

That suggests the car electronics are continuing to run processes while apparently 'asleep'. Open to speculation!

Most certainly. The car is not only sniffing about for some keyless entry stuff, but its also constantly connected to the cloud, which is what allows you to check that you remembered to lock your doors or start the AC remotely etc. I suspect it sometimes might also upload your trips and whatnot after the ride if it didnt manage to do it while driving

[CPN]

6 hours ago, Dala said:

IConsumption after 2 hours 210 mA.

At that rate, my 35Ah Battery would be flat in slightly less than 14 days... (35,280mA) 😮

(if it was just sat idle of course)

[MikeSh]

1 hour ago, CPN said:

At that rate, my 35Ah battery would be flat in slightly less than 14 days... (35,280mA) 😮

(if it was just sat idle of course)

<7 days.  210mA×24h×7=35,280mAh=35.28Ah.

[Derek.w]

Dala

My clamp on ammeter wont give a accurate reading that low it be just such a small movment on the scale maybe time for a digital clamp meter auto ranging off-course.

Did you go to the car with the key in your pocket so waking up the car?

More to the point is 210 milliamps dranage high for a modern car in sleep mode?.

 

[CruxisCore]

That is actually a good point too, it's also a problem dealers have in showrooms if they keep the keys in the car as the car is definitely more awake with the key around.

[CPN]

1 hour ago, MikeSh said:

<7 days.  210mA×24h×7=35,280mAh=35.28Ah.

You're right! My maths isn't what it used to be!🤣

[Dala]

7 minutes ago, Derek.w said:

.....My clamp on ammeter wont give a accurate reading that low it be just such a small movment on the scale maybe time for a digital clamp meter auto ranging off-course....

Inexpensive clamp multimeters do not have a scale for measuring current with low values. I chose Clamp Meter HP-7200APP. DC Current up to 60A has a resolution of 0.01A. It has a bluetooth connection. I didn't want to be locked in the car for the measurement.  😄 

7 minutes ago, Derek.w said:

...Did you go to the car with the key in your pocket so waking up the car?...

Not when measuring. This would affect the measurement result. Only when opening the car and measuring current at start. bluetooth works at about 20-30 meters.

7 minutes ago, Derek.w said:

...More to the point is 210 milliamps dranage high for a modern car in sleep mode?..

I haven't had time for long-term measurements yet. In the future, I would like to do a test that shows the values after several hours and days of the car being parked. I hope they are smaller. If 150 to 210 mA is too much or too little in modern cars? I really do not know. But the measured values correspond in percentage to the voltage drop I have measured in the past.

[anchorman]

10 hours ago, Tommy X said:

 

Roy, not sure what you mean by "crack on" but you seem to have a problem with the fact that I use the jump start terminal to charge the 12v battery which I find convenient, I don't need to get my dealer to connect a lead to the battery I a capable of doing it myself, I took the advice of my dealer which for me is a possible solution to not getting a no start, there are multiple repeat posts on this subject which haven't bothered me, we are all entitled to an opinion 

I much prefer to use the under bonnet connection too.  

[Derek.w]

Dala Thanks for the photo I noted the bend on the wire will also effect your reading but you can ovecome that by putting a non conducting box under your meter.

[jthspace]

If it's an infrequent issue then a lithium "booster" will quickly attach to the under bonnet connection and also has the advantage of being able to be stored in the boot for use anywhere. Whereas a connection to the Battery under the rear seat has the advantage of being able to be connected to a mains charger at home, slightly more awkward to connect a booster pack quickly.

Both options have advantages so maybe a "belt and braces" solution would be to get a lithium booster pack and keep it in the boot and have a lead connected and tucked under the rear seat as well.

BTW - and I did it on my Eunos (MK5) where the Battery is tucked away in the boot, if you are taking a spanner to the + terminal, wrap it in insulation tape to keep it away from bodywork. A spanner will quickly weld itself to (in my case) the hinge of the boot lid on the Eunos. Hammered it off but it destroyed the Gel Battery. 😳

[TopGeek]

1 hour ago, anchorman said:

I much prefer to use the under bonnet connection too.  

Same here, partly because it's too much hassle to fit the extension lead to the Battery and partly because I don't like the idea of having a loose lead dangling under the back seat.

[Roy124]

21 hours ago, Tommy X said:

 

Roy, not sure what you mean by "crack on" but you seem to have a problem with the fact that I use the jump start terminal to charge the 12v battery which I find convenient, I don't need to get my dealer to connect a lead to the battery I a capable of doing it myself, I took the advice of my dealer which for me is a possible solution to not getting a no start, there are multiple repeat posts on this subject which haven't bothered me, we are all entitled to an opinion 

No criticism intended Tommy. 'Crack on' is a fairly common slang for carry on.

I am not implying that you could not wire up a lead to the Battery.   My suggestion of getting the dealer to do it was that access to the Battery on the YC is not easy.  In my case I have a gravel drive and kneeling, even with a mat, can be painful.

[Roy124]

9 hours ago, TopGeek said:

 I don't like the idea of having a loose lead dangling under the back seat.

If I was younger, and planning to keep the car for some years, I would drill the plastic and mount a 12v socket connected to the Battery.  Live feed if needed and plug in the charger as required.

 

[jthspace]

11 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

If I was younger, and planning to keep the car for some years, I would drill the plastic and mount a 12v socket connected to the battery.  Live feed if needed and plug in the charger as required.

 

That's an idea...... ✅