12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[Derek.w]

You can use for Mk4 Yaris

Yuasa HSB202 Part no YBX5202  45AH cca 440 amps

Varta blue dynamic   544 401 042 or B36 44AH 440 amps

Or if you prefer there is also Bosch Battery!. I have to look up the number for this one.

[skidlid]

Not got the Yaris yet (due in March) but intend to use the Battery conditioner we have especially in winter. We bought the conditioner early in lockdown at the suggestion of our Skoda dealer, they wanted over £40 for one, bought an identical one on Amazon for just over £20 delivered. I have a "smart" charger I bought in 80's (which has worked fine on all older Battery types including Gel) but the conditioner is clearly way cleverer at charging. Use it on 2 cars and the Battery on the Skoda is now almost 6 years old (original battery) and the battery on the other car (a Yuasa 5000 type) is almost 7 years old. That car only gets used about 7 months of the year so 7 years (probably the longest a battery has lasted in the 31 years we have had the car) is quite a result and I would like to think that the conditioner has helped (together with the quality of Yuasa)

So in preparation I have downloaded the handbook but that only seems to cover in detail using jump leads which I hope to avoid. Plugging the charger direct to the battery is out, with the car (any car) in the garage its impossible to get the doors open far enough to gain much access and I don't really want to start adding plugs onto the battery in a new car (dealers can get uppity when you modify cars).

So I was wondering, can you use the points identified under the bonnet for jump starting to charge the battery? In the Fabia the battery is under the bonnet and all you do is connect the +ve to the battery and the -ve to the dedicated charging point (its simply an earth bolted to the inner wing) and leave it doing its stuff until the charger says "FUL" (not a spelling on my part, obviously the manufacturer cannot spell). Its no good doing that if the supplied +ve connection is "off" when the car is not running.

Hope that's all clear.

 

[Roy124]

Paul,

Under bonnet points are fine, provided you can open the driver's door to pop the bonnet.

I get the garage to fit a charging tail to the Battery before delivery. I then connect the charger using a long extension. 

If access is really tight you could fit the extension lead before you put the car in the garage and connect to charger once garaged.

[skidlid]

7 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

Paul,

Under bonnet points are fine, provided you can open the driver's door to pop the bonnet.

I get the garage to fit a charging tail to the battery before delivery. I then connect the charger using a long extension. 

If access is really tight you could fit the extension lead before you put the car in the garage and connect to charger once garaged.

Bonnet no issue and drivers door is easier than having to open the passenger door on the Fabia. I was just a bit concerned that you would need the ignition on to make the under bonnet point live but if its permanent it will simply be a repeat of what we are already doing.

[hind]

46 minutes ago, skidlid said:

 I was just a bit concerned that you would need the ignition on to make the under bonnet point live but if its permanent it will simply be a repeat of what we are already doing.

That would not make sense as you wouldn't be able to jump start it then 🙂

[skidlid]

1 hour ago, hind said:

That would not make sense as you wouldn't be able to jump start it then 🙂

WTF. I appreciate you need to turn the key to jump start it, pretty obvious. All I want to know is is the pin in the fuse box permanently live to allow charging? Similar in my Superb is but never needed to use it.

[hind]

Not always as you can have just a button, which sets the ignition state in the computer. No power = no work 🙂

But even if you have a key, it operates the switch which (in short words) switches the power to the relay which needs current too 🙂

So either way you need at least some volts ready which would make it impossible to "rise from death" very discharged Battery. That's why this pin/contact is permanently connected to the Battery. And you can charge it through it. Source: I've done that myself 🙂

Sorry for the need to explain the technical details but I'd rather know why I have to do something instead of hearing "just do it" so I try to do the same thing for others. 

[skidlid]

2 hours ago, hind said:

That's why this pin/contact is permanently connected to the battery. And you can charge it through it. Source: I've done that myself 🙂

Thanks. That is all I needed to know. The alternative of connecting to the Battery under the seat would be very difficult since the garage is not that wide.

So its +ve to the pin/contact and -ve to the alternator bracket (think that is hat is shown for jump starting)?

[Jasper.]

I fitted the Yuasa replacement this afternoon and then out of curiosity I tested the original Battery that I had removed. 

Interestingly,  i had fully charged this Battery yesterday after it failed to start the car , showing only 8 volts. I then went out for a local drive before swapping the batteries , this is what shows on my Battery tester after removing the battery. 

[hind]

The meter doesn't measure the capacity and that's where the Battery fails in our use case.

When I replaced the Battery in my other (diesel engine) car, it's capacity dropped from designed 64Ah to something around 3Ah = 5% (measured by charging from 11.8V with the engine barely starting to 14.4V). Yet when I took it to the Battery shop when they swapped it with the new one, I asked them to measure the old one. Surprisingly, it was in good condition according to the measurements. It still managed to produce around 320 Amps (should be 640A). That's why it was able to start the diesel engine, but it didn't matter for me because leaving it for a week meant that it won't start again because of the ridiculously small capacity.

[Roy124]

4 hours ago, skidlid said:

So its +ve to the pin/contact and -ve to the alternator bracket (think that is hat is shown for jump starting)?

No alternator.   Any bare metal though there is a recommended point if your charger lead can reach.   Obviously you can lengthen it.

[Primus1]

I’m thinking of buying a jump starter just in case, I have a ctek smart charger but, I’m thinking if I ever need to quickly get it going, such as for work, I need to be able to jump start it, I had a look in Halfords but am not sure which to get as they have a few different options, anyone know which is best..?

[Derek.w]

You can hook up positive lead to this see red blade that I have opened under the bonnet for negitive wire just use a strut bolt or engine mounting bolt of your choice.

Connect first before switching on your charger.

[Cyker]

52 minutes ago, Primus1 said:

I’m thinking of buying a jump starter just in case, I have a ctek smart charger but, I’m thinking if I ever need to quickly get it going, such as for work, I need to be able to jump start it, I had a look in halfords but am not sure which to get as they have a few different options, anyone know which is best..?

I just got the cheapest one they had on sale (Noco GB20) as the hybrids don't need the high cranking amps the higher models provide.

If you can find that one someone mentioned above that uses lithium iron phosphate that'd be better tho', as I found out afterwards the Nocos use the normal lithium cells that are of the flamey variety, and given it's going to live in the car in summer I am a bit concerned about that...!

 

[Chas G]

18 minutes ago, Cyker said:

 

If you can find that one someone mentioned above that uses lithium iron phosphate that'd be better tho', as I found out afterwards the Nocos use the normal lithium cells that are of the flamey variety, and given it's going to live in the car in summer I am a bit concerned about that...!

 

They say there is a silver lining to every cloud 😀

[hind]

46 minutes ago, Cyker said:

 I found out afterwards the Nocos use the normal lithium cells that are of the flamey variety, and given it's going to live in the car in summer I am a bit concerned about that...!

 

Just like your hybrid Battery which also lives in your car in summer 😛 BTW why not keep it at home? The Battery issue will happen after some time of not using the car. This either happens when you can't drive and the car is sitting at your place (so the starter can be taken from home) or you left it on the parking lot of the airport / harbour when you expect to have the issue and can throw the starter into the trunk 🙂

[Cyker]

Hmm, good point, I'm not actually sure what the hybrid battery's chemistry is! TBH it's a relatively minor concern as it won't be exposed to direct sunlight, and if it was I would have returned it and gone looking for that Lidl one, but some slight paranoia is always going to be there as I've watched too many videos of pouch cells turning into fireworks!    

I was going to keep it in the house and plugged in so there's no way it wouldn't be ready, but I just know when the 12v goes it'll happen away from home because that's the sort of luck I have.

Also, at least one person here had it die on them when they went to drive home from work, and had to call the AA, and because mine isn't giving me any trouble at all right now, I have a feeling when it does happen it'll be very sudden like that!

 

[Chas G]

I really dont understand :-

I fully charge the Battery, drive 8 miles to Watford which takes about 20 to 25 minutes. Do my shopping and drive 8 miles home. Check the voltage and it has dropped. If I worked in watford doing the 16 mile round trip every day, my Battery would go flat.

I put the Battery on charge and it goes to 4 lights on the ctek in a minute or 2 and fully charges in an hour which makes me think there is nothing wrong with my battery.

If i put it in ready mode for a couple of hours it fully charges.

Lots of people round here drive a mile or 2 to the tube station every day, do their weekly shop locally at sainsburys/tesco/waitrose etc on Saturdays and maybe a few miles on Sundays. Perfectly normal motoring for people living on the outskirts of London.

The only time my battery voltage has gone up is when I drove about 60 miles without stopping. 

[hind]

What is the charging voltage when you drive (or the car is in Ready mode)?

[RickyC]

According my voltmeter connected in the 12V plug is usually between 14 and 14.3 V if Battery is low and needs charge.  Then it drops to around 13V. 

[skidlid]

Just been and got the Fabia out of the garage. Battery is the original 6 year old EFB that was charged late last week and used once since. Plugged the digital volt meter into the ciggy socket and it showed a remarkably low 11.8 volts. I have always been told any less than about 12.5 volts the Battery is knackered and will not start a car. Pressed the start button and car bursts into life, volts dropped to 10.5 during startup. By the time I was out of the garage the meter was reading 14.8 volts and when I turned the car off it dropped back to 12.2 volts.

Meter is accurate but based on batteries of old this one is breaking the laws of science.

[hind]

6 minutes ago, skidlid said:

I have always been told any less than about 12.5 volts the battery is knackered and will not start a car

They lied to you 😛 I successfully started diesel with 11.8V (although it hesitated a little). I also started Yaris 1.0 with a Battery discharged to 9V (and 5 amp charger connected at the same time). The thing is, voltage of less than 12V begins the sulfation process which lowers the max power output and capacity of the Battery. It also means that the density of the electrolyte of 1.10 g/cm3 (which corresponds to voltage of around 11.7V) means that the Battery can freeze and burst in -9 oC so if we live in the north when we can expect such conditions, having discharged battery means risking damaging it from expanding ice inside. And nobody wants to have spilled pool of sulfuric acid because of the burst battery case 😜

28 minutes ago, RickyC said:

According my voltmeter connected in the 12V plug is usually between 14 and 14.3 V if battery is low and needs charge.  Then it drops to around 13V. 

There is a theory around other Yaris forums and groups that this is too low to charge the battery effectively. It should be 14.4V if the temperature is around +20 oC and should be compensated to even higher value if the temperature drops. There was a case when a guy drove his Yaris non-hybrid car everyday, doing 100 miles or so and despite that his battery failed after 2 years. So it was either faulty (I'm opting for this as this was supposedly Mutli) or the charging process was incorrect, charging the battery with not enough current to rebuild the charge. 

But any voltage higher than the battery voltage means charging it, even slightly, so no idea why this:

11 hours ago, Chas G said:

I fully charge the battery, drive 8 miles to Watford which takes about 20 to 25 minutes. Do my shopping and drive 8 miles home. Check the voltage and it has dropped.

has happened. Apart from the scenario that the battery didn't stabilise yet after charging. 

[Chas G]

1 hour ago, hind said:

What is the charging voltage when you drive (or the car is in Ready mode)?

In ready mode and charging the voltage is 14.5 volts ish at the red connection in the fuse box under the bonnet.

[skidlid]

24 minutes ago, hind said:

They lied to you 😛

Well I know from experience with one of our cars (had it 31 years now) that when the Battery becomes unable to hold at least 12.5 volts when standing the car will not start and its new Battery time. Car stands 5 months a year with the Battery off and I charge it every month or so, originally used a Gunsons smart charger since the car had a Gel battery (that's another story, never got more than 2 years from one) and for the past 4 winters a conditioner. The Gel and wet cell batteries were originally about 330 to 350 CCA but the 3 more recent ones have been in the region of 500 CCA (all have been 063 type batteries) and these have lasted 6 years at least.

The 11.8 volts the Fabia's battery showed this morning suggests its only 30% charged and should not start the car but that is how its been since the start of the first lockdown when I kept one eye on the battery. Seems from the Skoda forum that voltage is normal but not yet seen an explanation why or had conformation that the chemistry of an EFB gives a different voltage. The 10.5 volts during cranking is perfectly normal and that is what we get with a healthy battery in the old car. But when the battery voltage drops to 12.5 or less in that car the cranking volts fall to 10 or less and it struggles even to turn over. Hate to think what it would do with only 11.8 volts.

[skidlid]

Just found this on the Varta website for wet cell batteries, pretty much confirms what I have been told in the past.

Does not apply to EFB and AGM which are more complex to test which suggests there is more to it than simple voltage like a wet cell Battery.