Crunch time: I need to order a new company car!

[Nick72]

Just had notice and although my R4P is not due to be replaced until August they've pulled forward the ordering window by 3 or 4 months due to the supply chain issues and demand vs supply for hybrids and EVs. According to the letter.

I was hoping for a little more time as the EVs are getting close to my driving requirements and I get a better benefit in kind tax deal along with slightly lower personal mileage running costs. Supposedly it's better for the environment but don't get me started. 

If there's an ICE involved then it has to be a PHEV to get the 7 or so percent BiK tax. Needs to have AWD capability as I do some off road in the Lakes and other parks. Needs to be SUV sized for all my gear.

Most of my trips are under 28 to 35 mile round trips so it's great doing that in EV mode in the R4P. Then about 2 to 4 times a month I have a long business trip drive. Up to about 320 miles in the round trip. Late spring to learly Autumn add in 2 trips a month of up to 200 mile round trips for holidays and visiting our second home (tiny but nice). 

If an EV it needs to have c. 320 to 340 miles range (winter, motorway, real world). I'd have gone for a lower figure previously but my work journeys are now closer to 320 mile round trips worst case. And there's no way I want to be recharging in the service station lotto after a long day. I've seen the chaos.

If there aren't any good options (suggestions please) then it looks like the RAV 4 PHEV GR Sport but I need to book a test drive given the suspension stiffening.

Thoughts welcome everyone.

Normally I couldn't afford nor justify a 50k car (apart from the AMG previously, and more than 50k 😅,... very unhappy wife) but the low BiK tax and company subsidies essentially means I'm only paying for a 3 yr lease for a 25 to 30k car rather than a 50k car.  As we have a company blanket insurance policy I don't have to worry about anything like that and note that the insurance premium has gone bananas. Fortunately everything is sorted by the company. Breakdown, insurance, service & maintenance, everything. Good for 20k miles a year but I don't get anywhere close to that. Very fortunate really.

I do love Toyota reliability and robustness so there's no way I'm going near a Peugeot, Renault,  Vauxhaul, Seat, Fiat etc. Merc yes. BMW yes. Volvo possibly. Would consider anything in the middle. 

 

🤓

 

 

 

[ernieb]

Right now in your situation I’d be looking at the sport PHEV.

[JDK-SL7]

Hi Nick,

I'm in a very similar boat to you! I also currently have a 2021 Rav4 PHEV as a company car...

Colleagues have Q3 and A6 plug-ins which have fewer toys and higher BIK... so when I'm asked what I'd like next my answer will be... A new Rav 4 PHEV in GR Sport Trim 🙂

 

 

[Nick72]

12 hours ago, JDK-SL7 said:

Hi Nick,

I'm in a very similar boat to you! I also currently have a 2021 Rav4 PHEV as a company car...

Colleagues have Q3 and A6 plug-ins which have fewer toys and higher BIK... so when I'm asked what I'd like next my answer will be... A new Rav 4 PHEV in GR Sport Trim 🙂

 

 

Q3 could work. Not looked at A6. But as good as Audi are I'm not sure they've mastered the phev drivetrain like Toyota has.

R4P GR Sport is way ahead in the race but I am looking at the Polestar 3. 370 mile range. How that translates to real world range is the problem. If its over 310 or so then its a winner but I doubt it. EVs are just slightly short for my needs. I think I want a RAV4 EV with a solid state Battery and 570 mile range.🤣

[philip42h]

14 hours ago, Nick72 said:

If an EV it needs to have c. 320 to 340 miles range (winter, motorway, real world).

Then it's not going to be an EV! 😉 A Tesla Model S or Fisker Ocean look to be the best available today and they can manage only 260 and 235 miles respectively in highway, cold weather conditions.

So, you don't have a decision to make - another boring old RAV4 PHEV it must be ...

It's such a hard life! 🙂 

[Strangely Brown]

As above.

In the real world you are not going to get anything like the range that you are looking for. Once the lower range is accepted then you have the problems that come with charger availability, reliability and charge time.

In your position I would go with a RAV4 PHEV without hesitation.

I saw this today and, surprise surprise, guess what's good.

https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/new-report-highlights-a-major-speedbump-to-mass-electric-vehicle-adoption

ETA: an afterthought that may be a consideration for you. If you find a BEV that can, reliably, provide the range that you are looking for at the times and in the conditions that you require then it is going to  weigh somewhere in the ballpark of a cathederal. Further, I don't know of any that can do that offroad and then there is the risk of damage to the Battery if it is under the floor... etc etc.

[Nick72]

9 hours ago, philip42h said:

Then it's not going to be an EV! 😉 A Tesla Model S or Fisker Ocean look to be the best available today and they can manage only 260 and 235 miles respectively in highway, cold weather conditions.

So, you don't have a decision to make - another boring old RAV4 PHEV it must be ...

It's such a hard life! 🙂 

You know you're probably right. I was looking at the Polestar 2 earlier with the new ling range version having a 406 mile range claim. Unfortunately the AWD version was at 370 or so. Either way the real world winter motorway range is going to be sub 300. And it's probably a bit too small in terms of boot space. And too low to the ground.

[Nick72]

8 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

As above.

In the real world you are not going to get anything like the range that you are looking for. Once the lower range is accepted then you have the problems that come with charger availability, reliability and charge time.

In your position I would go with a RAV4 PHEV without hesitation.

I saw this today and, surprise surprise, guess what's good.

https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/new-report-highlights-a-major-speedbump-to-mass-electric-vehicle-adoption

ETA: an afterthought that may be a consideration for you. If you find a BEV that can, reliably, provide the range that you are looking for at the times and in the conditions that you require then it is going to  weigh somewhere in the ballpark of a cathederal. Further, I don't know of any that can do that offroad and then there is the risk of damage to the battery if it is under the floor... etc etc.

I'm not so sure. The Americans are wedded to gasoline outside of california. Polestar 2 new LR model has 406 mile range (probably nearly 300 in real world cold conditions) so we are almost at my threshold. I'm sure we'll be over my threshold comfortably within 3 years but not quite there at the moment.  As I think I mentioned before the specific energy is tripling over the next 10 years and electric motor power density tripling also over the same period. Its all simply inevitable. Just not quite in time for my order decision it seems.

[Nick72]

RAV4 GR Sport. I just got a quote from our company car folks. Worryingly the spec did not mention sunroof, pan roof or moon roof. I really do want one. It's always open in the summer. 

Is it not default?

[philip42h]

20 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

RAV4 GR Sport. I just got a quote from our company car folks. Worryingly the spec did not mention sunroof, pan roof or moon roof. I really do want one. It's always open in the summer. 

Is it not default?

No, it's an optional extra at £860 - but at least it's an available option.

[Rav Rob]

I guess your on a fuel card? if so it probably doesn't matter, more an issue if your on approved fuel rates... but from experience of our company fleet which has had a lot of PHEV's through it, nearly all are really rubbish on fuel consumption on any journeys beyond Battery range, the Battery range is poor compared to specification too.
Toyota is almost unique in having a very efficient hybrid system that seem to be able to live with even a dead weight Battery and also seems to have a fairly decent EV range.

Last changeover I looked long and hard at an EV but we get reimbursed at HMRC AFR rates for fuel so a regular hybrid worked for me (cheaper so lower BIK) being 2.5L I get the higher reimbursement rates calculated for 27mpg while getting nearer 50mpg so actually make a tidy profit, in fact enough (high mileage driver) to go a good way to offset the painful ICE BIK.
The final straw was the tripling in domestic energy costs effect on charging cost.

Like you I need something 4wd and a big hauler, I don't want to stop and charge at slow public facilities either! - that only left Tesla (superchargers) and that only left the model Y, which was too expensive at the time, less so now after the price cuts its had. 

 

 

[Flatcoat]

I know I risk getting banned for these suggestions however, early next year there is a new Tiguan and Skoda Kodiaq both with updated PHEV powertrain options. Both would be on my radar albeit the PHEV powertrain doesn’t have 4wd. 

[Nick72]

59 minutes ago, philip42h said:

No, it's an optional extra at £860 - but at least it's an available option.

It's not listed as an option in that case in amongst the available options with the lease company we use. That's a spanner in the works for me right now. The sunroof is great for driving through the forests in the summer and lightens the otherwise drab interior. Big spanner in the works. I wonder why it's not an option.

[Nick72]

54 minutes ago, Rav Rob said:

I guess your on a fuel card? if so it probably doesn't matter, more an issue if your on approved fuel rates... but from experience of our company fleet which has had a lot of PHEV's through it, nearly all are really rubbish on fuel consumption on any journeys beyond battery range, the battery range is poor compared to specification too.
Toyota is almost unique in having a very efficient hybrid system that seem to be able to live with even a dead weight battery and also seems to have a fairly decent EV range.

Last changeover I looked long and hard at an EV but we get reimbursed at HMRC AFR rates for fuel so a regular hybrid worked for me (cheaper so lower BIK) being 2.5L I get the higher reimbursement rates calculated for 27mpg while getting nearer 50mpg so actually make a tidy profit, in fact enough (high mileage driver) to go a good way to offset the painful ICE BIK.
The final straw was the tripling in domestic energy costs effect on charging cost.

Like you I need something 4wd and a big hauler, I don't want to stop and charge at slow public facilities either! - that only left Tesla (superchargers) and that only left the model Y, which was too expensive at the time, less so now after the price cuts its had. 

 

 

Not too bad on fuel. I pay for it myself if it is a work trip then claim it back through the expense system by miles covered. The rate or cost per mile reimbursement for fuel is based on engine size. As the rav4p is 2.5 litre it puts it in the top bracket which assumes circa 35mpg so I end up making about 35% profit on all trips. Been conscientious I did raise it but I was told you win some lose some and that's just the way the system is. Happy motoring for me for the last 2.2 years. 

[Nick72]

27 minutes ago, Flatcoat said:

I know I risk getting banned for these suggestions however, early next year there is a new Tiguan and Skoda Kodiaq both with updated PHEV powertrain options. Both would be on my radar albeit the PHEV powertrain doesn’t have 4wd. 

Definitely interesting if they were AWD. Bit of a must for the muddy steep trails.

[philip42h]

27 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

It's not listed as an option in that case in amongst the available options with the lease company we use. That's a spanner in the works for me right now. The sunroof is great for driving through the forests in the summer and lightens the otherwise drab interior. Big spanner in the works. I wonder why it's not an option.

Maybe you need to send them a copy of the December Price List - it's listed as an option there ... 😉

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, philip42h said:

Maybe you need to send them a copy of the December Price List - it's listed as an option there ... 😉

It's a terrible ordering process and website to be honest. For example, there were 3 pearl white paint choices all at different prices and 2 of which you couldn't have the standard interior selected which you have to select to get a quote. It's very poor. Could see an option fir rubber mats throughout which have been great so I may just keep hold of the existing ones and swap them over.

But no option for the pan roof. Which is not on the spec either.

Also wondered, is there some kind of tax penalty if you go over 50k car value. Its 48.X k but adding the paint and the pan roof puts it over 50k.

[Mike2222]

3 hours ago, Nick72 said:

I'm not so sure. The Americans are wedded to gasoline outside of california. Polestar 2 new LR model has 406 mile range (probably nearly 300 in real world cold conditions) so we are almost at my threshold. I'm sure we'll be over my threshold comfortably within 3 years but not quite there at the moment.  As I think I mentioned before the specific energy is tripling over the next 10 years and electric motor power density tripling also over the same period. Its all simply inevitable. Just not quite in time for my order decision it seems.

I appreciate the joys of daydreaming, but I'm sorry, the combination of 320-340 mile range... In cold weather (remembering that standing water notably increases energy use - required to push it aside, effectively - and it has been known to rain occasionally in the UK)... At motorway speeds... In a package that can haul a load of stuff +/- people (meaning SUV shape, usually, and at higher speeds, air drag is proportional to speed², and that's assuming no air movement or headwind etc)... Is not happening with current Battery technology... Ever. 

 

The size and weight of a Battery required to produce this type of vehicle would be prohibitively expensive/large/heavy to package into a commericly viable consumer vehicle. The energy density of the motors is irrelevant, that's just packaging the drive train. Their efficiency would either have to wildly improve, or the energy storage capacity of the Battery needs to. The largest batteries in BEVs have 95-105ish usable kwh. You're asking for them to get a bare minimum of 3.3mpkwh reliably in those conditions, and realistically you're actually asking 3.5-3.6, unless you want to be tortoising your way only your driveway in limp mode. 

 

That's more than three years away, I'm afraid. Especially because most manufacturers will already be designing the cars they'll be releasing in 3+yrs time, and for BEVs their commercial viability depends so heavily on the range & motor/battery tech. 

 

I love BEVs, they're great fun to drive. But the closest to your current request is probably fisker ocean - the extreme is expected to manage 235miles in the cold, at motorway speeds (calculations notwithstanding other environmental variations, eg road condition, headwind, standing water, etc etc), for about £50k (is polestar 3 approx £80k?):

https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1710/Fisker-Ocean-Ultra

 

Unless you can handle the risk of public charging, rav4 (or the lexus variant) is your choice, moonroof or no 😂

[Nick72]

27 minutes ago, Mike2222 said:

I appreciate the joys of daydreaming, but I'm sorry, the combination of 320-340 mile range... In cold weather (remembering that standing water notably increases energy use - required to push it aside, effectively - and it has been known to rain occasionally in the UK)... At motorway speeds... In a package that can haul a load of stuff +/- people (meaning SUV shape, usually, and at higher speeds, air drag is proportional to speed², and that's assuming no air movement or headwind etc)... Is not happening with current battery technology... Ever. 

 

The size and weight of a battery required to produce this type of vehicle would be prohibitively expensive/large/heavy to package into a commericly viable consumer vehicle. The energy density of the motors is irrelevant, that's just packaging the drive train. Their efficiency would either have to wildly improve, or the energy storage capacity of the battery needs to. The largest batteries in BEVs have 95-105ish usable kwh. You're asking for them to get a bare minimum of 3.3mpkwh reliably in those conditions, and realistically you're actually asking 3.5-3.6, unless you want to be tortoising your way only your driveway in limp mode. 

 

That's more than three years away, I'm afraid. Especially because most manufacturers will already be designing the cars they'll be releasing in 3+yrs time, and for BEVs their commercial viability depends so heavily on the range & motor/battery tech. 

 

I love BEVs, they're great fun to drive. But the closest to your current request is probably fisker ocean - the extreme is expected to manage 235miles in the cold, at motorway speeds (calculations notwithstanding other environmental variations, eg road condition, headwind, standing water, etc etc), for about £50k (is polestar 3 approx £80k?):

https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1710/Fisker-Ocean-Ultra

 

Unless you can handle the risk of public charging, rav4 (or the lexus variant) is your choice, moonroof or no 😂

Mike, appreciate the response. Things are changing fast. The trends and the facts suggest so at least. I've posted all this here before including links to the science, the tech, the engineering and what the industry is actually doing with it. Part of my job to know so I'm constantly following.

Battery specific energy is tripling over the next 10 years as it has over the last 10. Plenty of data to back this up and nothing exotic at all required. Still Lithium chemistry. Take the new Polestar 2 LR. Possibly a bit small for me but... They're now running at 406 miles vs the previous 300 in the space of 3 years. Multiply by about 0.7 for winter motorway range. So thats pretty close to my needs but not quite. Polestar 3 looking interesting too as you mention for an SUV sized vehicle. 379 miles claimed so probably 260 or 270 miles on winter motorways. Toyota's own solid state Battery will offer best part of 600 miles for the same mass and volume as we see on current EV Battery packs. At most this is 5 or 6 years away for production units. Combine that with electric motor power density which is tripling over the next 10 years as a result of more powerful magnets and new packaging designs enabled by manufacturing robotics and it's a perfect storm.

Any new discoveries and or cunning plans could break the tripling per decade trends in a positive way.

 

So whilst it's just shy for me now it will exceed my requirements in about 3 years and I'll be on the EV bandwagon subject to tax incentives and cost per mile for energy. At which point I won't need to use public charging because I can do all my work and pleasure round trip commutes within a single charge. Which is what is behind my 300+ mile winter motorway (worst case) target if that makes sense. Absolutely looking to avoid public charging at all costs. I take a peak whenever I stop at the motorway services. They're either broke, full up, queueing up, and folks falling out over who was next or why did you hog the charger for 45 minutes. Nope. No thanks.

[Nick72]

Went into the dealer today. They had no R4P GR Sports in. They had sold their display model which I saw briefly a few months ago when I was there with mine fir a service.

No response from the company car folks regarding the no pan roof option on their website.

 

[Torrox]

2 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Went into the dealer today. They had no R4P GR Sports in. They had sold their display model which I saw briefly a few months ago when I was there with mine fir a service.

No response from the company car folks regarding the no pan roof option on their website.

 

My gr sport ordered in October has pan roof.

[Nick72]

19 hours ago, Torrox said:

My gr sport ordered in October has pan roof.

Did you have to specifically order that as an option?  When did you put the order in if i may ask? I'm ordering for 1st September delivery. Lead time according to my dealership is 3 to 4 months.  

[Flatcoat]

The panroof is now an option. 

[Torrox]

4 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Did you have to specifically order that as an option?  When did you put the order in if i may ask? I'm ordering for 1st September delivery. Lead time according to my dealership is 3 to 4 months.  

I ordered the car on the 25th September, at the time the price was about £49500 and there wasn't any other extra options. In November I noticed the price has gone down to about £48850 but this time the pan roof is an option. I checked my order and it stated that the car has pan roof. So the difference in price is the pan roof it seems.

They said delivery could be in January /February but also said if I would refer to delay until March for the new plate which I agreed.

[Nick72]

19 minutes ago, Torrox said:

I ordered the car on the 25th September, at the time the price was about £49500 and there wasn't any other extra options. In November I noticed the price has gone down to about £48850 but this time the pan roof is an option. I checked my order and it stated that the car has pan roof. So the difference in price is the pan roof it seems.

They said delivery could be in January /February but also said if I would refer to delay until March for the new plate which I agreed.

Excellent thanks. I thought I was going mad because I was sure it was just a default and not an option. Still waiting to hear back from the company car people about why it isn't listed as an option on our company specific version of their website given it doesn't appear in the spec for the 48k price quoted.