Road Sign Assist - intermittent bug

[Sidrat]

On 7/6/2023 at 1:21 PM, ganjen said:

I had been experimenting with a couple of things! Tuesday it started beeping (i.e. KPH rather than MPH), so at the end of journey (about 6 miles) I turned the RSA off and also pulled the USB stick out and then turned the power off. An hour later, got in the car and started it and RSA started automatically. Drove home and RSA was just fine (i.e. MPH not KPH)! This morning it was back to error!! Pulling the USB out didn't work. So, again stopped the car, turned RSA off and drove for about 2 miles and stopped and turned the power off. Waited for a couple of minutes and started the car with USB stick in. Surprise surprise, RSA worked as it should! So, it was not the USB...!

So, may be turning RSA off when powering off the car appear to be working 🙂. I will give this trick a go a few times and report back later.

Thanks for all your messages.

 

On 7/6/2023 at 7:18 PM, Cyker said:

The basic problem is it's not considered a bug - The logic is, if it sees a sign on the right-side of the car, it assumes it's in KPH, and if it's on the left it's assumed to be MPH.

Now, this is obviously stupid since we have signs on both sides, but that's what they went with and I can't see it being fixed any time soon.

I don't know if satnav-equipped cars are more accurate, but I know with us early Mk4 owners where the car doesn't even have satnav as an option, the system is just not fit for purpose.

 

10 hours ago, Malcolm Preen said:

Hmm, maybe some progress... my local dealership has a new sales manager...

I've spoken at length to him... and he accepts that its a bug...

He's going to try and escalate and get Technical to accept its a bug...

Still not holding my breath.... but this sales manager has promised to get back to me next week....

Out again today and no problems post update to the RSA on Tuesday, before the update it would change between KPH & MPH even on a relatively short journey, now it has stayed firmly on MPH since.  The dealer put an enquiry with Toyota GB and it was them that said to do this patch update to the car firmware.

[Cyker]

Can you get any details on what this update is? Version number or TSB or something?

Every time I ask my dealer they insist there isn't one!!

 

[Malcolm Preen]

I'd love to know too... there was a TSB referenced (link earlier in this thread) BE-00734T-TME

Is this a new update?

I have had it confirmed I have the one quoted above...

Malcolm

[ganjen]

Just got back from a 2-day trip, roughly 150 miles on Motorways, A roads and B roads with various speed limits. All went without any issues with RSA!! I did not turn on/off the system (as I did before). So, to me it all look very random 🙂. I am keeping my fingers crossed!! We will be at our Toyota dealer in Swansea on Saturday and I'll see whether I could talk to their Principal Technician about the RSA issues.

[Sidrat]

On 7/7/2023 at 8:10 PM, Cyker said:

Can you get any details on what this update is? Version number or TSB or something?

Every time I ask my dealer they insist there isn't one!!

 

Called the dealership, the TSB is BE-00734T-TME, the part no the dealer needs for the firmware patch is in that bulletin.  Since being installed my RSA/Cruise Control link has worked as it should without a problem, over two weeks now.

[Malcolm Preen]

11 minutes ago, Sidrat said:

Called the dealership, the TSB is BE-00734T-TME, the part no the dealer needs for the firmware patch is in that bulletin.  Since being installed my RSA/Cruise Control link has worked as it should without a problem, over two weeks now.

Thanks - that's the same one quoted in a reply at the start of this article... which I had checked - and have installed already... Still getting the error here.... Triggered more by temporary (road works) signs it seems at present...

Malcolm

[Malcolm Preen]

Still persisting with this... car went into dealership for XGG78 DCM re-programming...

KMH error within 5 miles of leaving dealership... So, that didn't help...

Speaking with the salesman, they are as frustrated as I am at the lack of response from Technical...

Their current suggestion is that I should swap my current car for a currently unregistered Yaris of the same spec - but a different colour...

I'm tempted.... but there is no guarantee it is fixed (its not like I'm the only one with the problem!! - although maybe the most persistent!!).

Any thoughts on this?

My concerns are... increased insurance costs... need to stay on current PCP deal (0%)... etc - Anything else I should be worried about?

Malcolm

[Malcolm Preen]

Hmm, progress of sorts....

Just had the following message;

Hopefully you can read the image...

Whilst it's a positive response.... I sent the following back to my contact;

---- start of my reply to dealer ---

Thanks

However, that sounds like this isn't addressing the switching to KMH.

 

I'm happy they are looking to "fix" the issue explained... but, as I've said before, this is, to me at least, a feature that I can live with... (especially as it resolves as soon as it reads the next sign).

 

When it switches to KMH, this will often last for hours (sometimes it is just minutes, but I regularly see the issue occur and still be active after I've parked up for a couple of hours).

 

Is there any comment on the switch to KMH from MPH ?

 

Thanks (and trying not to sound ungrateful), Malcolm

--- end of my reply ----

 

Wonder if this'll be fixed before hybrid cars are outlawed in 2035 ! 

[Cyker]

Why they can't just put a menu option for selecting AUTO, MPH and KPH I don't understand.

I do find it annoying but not enough for me to swap my car out, esp. since they don't do ones with a HUD any more!

This is the biggest problem in all new cars - The software.

Nobody can write good software anymore, and car manufacturers have never been good at it. With cars increasingly relying on software, their reliability is going down due to stupid bugs that have disproportionate effects. One of the reasons Toyota hybrids beat most EVs for reliability is due to software problems in the EVs!

 

[Malcolm Preen]

20 hours ago, Cyker said:

This is the biggest problem in all new cars - The software.

Nobody can write good software anymore, and car manufacturers have never been good at it. With cars increasingly relying on software, their reliability is going down due to stupid bugs that have disproportionate effects. One of the reasons Toyota hybrids beat most EVs for reliability is due to software problems in the EVs!

 

This is extra frustrating as a now retired software engineer... 

I've volunteered to run diagnostics on my car if they'll tell me how...

Thinking.... turn "debug on" - insert a USB stick.... collect data.... when the problem happens - pull over at a safe place, extract stick and deliver to dealer.

That's how I'd have done it anyway....

[Malcolm Preen]

Update from Essex... spoken to the sales manager at my dealer again... he's on my side (at last) but is getting no better luck at getting anything out of Toyota Technical...

However, he's raised the issue with the local director of the dealership (Steven Eagell - if that matters)...

Hopefully this director can help... but as normal, I'm not holding my breath ..

[YarisHybrid2016]

Can't say I've seen any issues with RSA on mine yet. It was built some time in August, so if there is a software fix, I would hope mine has it.

Yet to take it on a motorway and see how it deals with motorway road signs (end of motorway), and never seen it display more than 1 sign at a time (it's supposed to be able to display two at a time, maximum). Not sure where I could test that.

An interesting thing I did notice is the Cross (2022) will display a motorway sign on a particular stretch of road, but mine doesn't - it displays 70. Not sure what the source of that data is (my guess is nav for that particular stretch as there are no motorway-type or colored signs). On mine, the speed is correct as is the type. It's dual-carriageway; not motorway.

[YarisHybrid2016]

On 3/24/2023 at 8:44 AM, Roy124 said:

My county kept saying it was the land owner's responsibility. 

This overlooked the impossibility for a land owner to cut back vegetation on narrow roads without road closures.  It also ignored their right to cut vegetation growing over a boundary. 

I thought highways had a legal obligation to ensure all signage was readable? e.g. speed limit sign - if I'm busted for speeding and I say the sign was obscured by foliage, then surely that is their problem?

If I have a crash because I didn't see the "slippery" or "queues ahead" road sign, surely it is highways/the local authority I sue and not some random farmer (no, I'm not that dumb, but you get the point).

[Malcolm Preen]

8 hours ago, YarisHybrid2016 said:

Yet to take it on a motorway and see how it deals with motorway road signs (end of motorway), and never seen it display more than 1 sign at a time (it's supposed to be able to display two at a time, maximum). Not sure where I could test that.

I occasionally see a "double sign" - normally speed limit combined with "no overtaking" - took a while to learn how to see second sign as tricky to consult manual at 40mph :-)

I get motorway entrance / exit sometimes.... more times I get 70 limit...

[ganjen]

Now I get the KPH notification only occasionally, mainly from some of the roadwork speed signs. However, when you get to the next sign the car corrects itself!!

[Malcolm Preen]

On 9/21/2023 at 11:54 AM, ganjen said:

Now I get the KPH notification only occasionally, mainly from some of the roadwork speed signs. However, when you get to the next sign the car corrects itself!!

In my experience, this happens sometimes.... but normally it doesn't...

I've even had "KMH" mode stay on when I parked the car for a couple of hours when I visited a friend for coffee (ie as soon as a drove off, it was still active)

Malcolm

[Malcolm Preen]

Don;t know if this count as progress or not... e-mail from Toyota Customer Relations...

Quote

Toyota Customer Relations ref: CASE1952916

 

Dear Malcolm

Thank you for your recent contact and I am sorry that I have missed you, I have been out of the office.

After speaking with the technical team internally I can confirm that there are limitations of the Road Sign Assist technology which we are regrettably unable to adjust or change.

The system within your vehicle is automatically detecting road signs and determining what it feels to be the appropriate units of measurement.  It is a limitation of the system and the system should be used as an aid.

We are regrettably not able to update or adjust the system within your vehicle. I believe this has been raised with Product Quality and has been escalated to Toyota Motor Europe however at this stage we cannot confirm or provide a time scale  when an update will be available.

As this issue is a characteristic and limitation of the system, no repair or replacement would benefit or change the system's functionality. Therefore I regret to confirm that we are unable to adjust this feature within your vehicle, and consider the feature to be working to the manufacturer's specifications. 

I apologise that this does not meet with your expectations and understand your dissatisfaction and feedback on this matter. There is no further information we can provide at this stage and should an update be available your Toyota Centre will be informed and kept up to date. 

We want to find a solution to your issue that satisfies you, and I’m sorry you feel we haven’t managed to do so yet.

The reason for writing is because we can only suggest that if you remain dissatisfied, you might find it helpful to speak with The Motor Ombudsman, an organisation that helps to resolve issues like yours through conciliation and arbitration. You can find them at www.themotorombudsman.org or on their advice line 0345 241 3008. You can use this e-mail if you wish to raise a complaint with the Ombudsan.

They will discuss this issue with you and us, with a view to arriving at a resolution that is legally-binding for both you and ourselves. We will be happy to do all we are asked to, as part of that process.

Kind regards

Anita Hoole

 

[Malcolm Preen]

I tried calling to discuss but Anita "wasn't in" (or didn't want to talk to me) so I replied as follows;

Thank you for your reply... and I understand what you are saying.... BUT

 

I would really like to talk to you to explain my problem... (please call me on XXXXXXXX)... I will summarise here...

 

Whilst the problem itself is a frustration.... I am aware that the RSA feature is only a guide....

 

What frustrates me is that I can see NO REASON AT ALL why a UK registered vehicle should ever switch into recognising signs as KMH?

 

The second issue I have is that "Toyota Technical" have no provided a sensible response to this at all...  I have bounced off my local dealer and they both sales and service sections have received the same response... ie nothing useful...

 

Currently, apart from this issue, I am happy with the car, but I am completely dissatisfied with the levels of customer service.... as I say above, this issue is a frustration... but if I had a more serious problem, I don't have any faith that the response would be any better... To me, it feels as if Toyota have got my money and they don't care.

 

I understand the problem of the camera picking up the wrong sign from lorries or side streets or whatever.... but to switch to KMH makes NO SENSE at all....

 

You state "I believe this has been raised with Product Quality and has been escalated to Toyota Motor Europe however at this stage we cannot confirm or provide a time scale when an update will be available".

 

I would be happy with this response.... but I would need confirmation that the problem has been raised - along with a reference which I can track (and ideally a promise to keep me updated - one or twice a year perhaps?)

 

I have long stated that whilst a solution would be great.... acceptance of the problem (and a way to track the solution - even if it takes many years....) would feel like a victory...

 

As you appear to almost be accepting that this is a real problem - can I suggest that this issue should be documented in a customer letter (to all affected owners).

 

Thank you, Malcolm Preen

[Malcolm Preen]

And a reply.... (seems quite positive.... but as per normal I'm not holding my breath)

Thank you for your response.

I can understand your overall strength of feeling regarding this issue.

I have a meeting with Product Quality and Technical early next week regarding your case so I will come back to you after this meeting.

Just to advise the reference code for the issue being raised at Toyota Motor Europe is an internal reference number and not something we can share with customers and you will not be able to track the reference. 

Thank you for your patience, I will be in contact next week.

Kind regards

Anita Hoole

[Malcolm Preen]

Another reply from Customer Service...

To say I'm unimpressed is an understatement.... Guess I'm heading for the ombudsman...

Quote

Dear Malcolm

Thank your or your continued patience whilst I reviewed your case with various internal departments.

Unfortunately because no physical navigation ECU is fitted from factory, the camera does not refer to the map data, therefore enabling the system to know the vehicle is located in the UK.

The camera is a stand alone system for this reason and operating within the limitations of the system, as explained within the owner's manual. Occasionally, the system may think the road sign is KPH, based on what the camera detects. The system can be switched off audible/visual alerts if necessary.

Previously the vehicle had software applied, which corrects the phenomenon of 'RSA Over speed warning setting is lost after the IG cycle' but it does not prevent the possibility of the system reverting to KPH. There is no software specific to only UK vehicles planned.

I am sorry if this is not the answer you had hoped for but this is all we can advise at this stage. There is nothing more that I can advise regarding this matter.

Should you remain dissatisfied my only suggestion would be to contact the The Motor Ombudsman. You can find them at www.themotorombudsman.org or on their advice line 0345 241 3008.
They will discuss this issue with you and us, with a view to arriving at a resolution that is legally-binding for both you and ourselves. We will be happy to do all we are asked to, as part of that process.

Kind regards

Anita Hoole

 

[Roy124]

I can read the words but my understanding is limited.

 

[Malcolm Preen]

One last try before I contact the ombudsman....

Anita,

Thank you for your email - and apologies for the delay in this reply...

 

As I've previously stated, I accept most of the documented limitations of the system... as frustrating as they are...

 

The one I really can't accept is;

 

The camera is a stand alone system for this reason and operating within the limitations of the system, as explained within the owner's manual. Occasionally, the system may think the road sign is KPH, based on what the camera detects. The system can be switched off audible/visual alerts if necessary.

 

Since the last communication I have further experimented with my car, and I can set the system to work in KM - the ODO reads in KM, the dashboard works in KMH .... the fuel economy works in KM/l or l/KM as selected.

 

This setting recognises EVERY speed limit sign as KMH (as I would expect)

 

I haven't driven that much with this setting as it's very confusing....

 

Given this experiment.... what I still don't understand is why the RSA software should EVER decide to change between KMH and MPH.

 

I don't expect this to be FIXED today.... but there is something in the software which is making this change (and in effect overriding the setting on the car). What I am looking for is the acceptance that this is a bug - and for it to be logged as such.... and hopefully fixed in the future....

 

Imagine the future.... a self driving car.... suddenly braking because the it has decided that the speed limit is in KMH not MPH .. Just imagine lawsuits!!

 

Does this explain my problem better?

 

Malcolm

[Graham47]

1 hour ago, Malcolm Preen said:

…… before I contact the ombudsman....

And what exactly do you expect from them ?

[Cyker]

To be fair, it doesn't make any sense why they can't just make the RSA follow the units you've set for everything else - If the speedo is in miles per hour, the RSA should operate exclusively in mph; If it's in kph, the RSA should operate in kph - I don't understand why it is so difficult to implement that or a user selectable option.

This is one of the annoying things about Toyota as, despite their incredible genius at most things, now and then they seem to get hung up on small things like this, that have what seem to me are blindingly obvious and simple solutions.

[CPN]

The answer is probably because Toyota doesn't do its own software?