Volvo EX30 Dual motor ER or RAV4 PHEV GR Sport?

[Strangely Brown]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

Toyota seem like they're positioning themselves for short-range rapid-charging EVs, so e.g. you only have a 100-150 miles of range but you can charge in 5-10 minutes instead of 30-60 minutes.

How are they going to do that?

Even if you allow that the car is super efficient and can get 5 miles/kW you would still take 24 minutes to get 100 miles of range from a 50kW charger.

The only way to get close to ICE refuelling time[*] is to charge at 100kW+ (100 miles at 150kW - 8 mins, 200kW - 6 mins) assuming both that the car/battery can take it and that the grid can support a network of charging stations with that kind of draw.

The problem of transferring large quantities of electrical energy from point A (grid) to point B (car) in a short space of time is not trivial - ok, correction, it is trivial but not if you want both ends to be useable afterwards. 🙂

 

[*] ... but not range. A RAV4 HEV will take on 500 miles of range in about 5 minutes.

[AJones]

56 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

The only way to get close to ICE refuelling time[*] is to charge at 100kW+ (100 miles at 150kW - 8 mins, 200kW - 6 mins) assuming both that the car/battery can take it and that the grid can support a network of charging stations with that kind of draw.

That's exactly what some EVs do, they can rapid charge at 100+kW, for example the Ioniq 5 on a 350kW rapid charger, charge 70 miles of range in 5 minutes. 10-80% in 18 minutes.

[Cyker]

1 hour ago, Strangely Brown said:

How are they going to do that?

Even if you allow that the car is super efficient and can get 5 miles/kW you would still take 24 minutes to get 100 miles of range from a 50kW charger.

The only way to get close to ICE refuelling time[*] is to charge at 100kW+ (100 miles at 150kW - 8 mins, 200kW - 6 mins) assuming both that the car/battery can take it and that the grid can support a network of charging stations with that kind of draw.

The problem of transferring large quantities of electrical energy from point A (grid) to point B (car) in a short space of time is not trivial - ok, correction, it is trivial but not if you want both ends to be useable afterwards. 🙂

 

[*] ... but not range. A RAV4 HEV will take on 500 miles of range in about 5 minutes.

The biggest advantage of solid state batteries is they can be run at much higher temperatures - Combined with 800v charging, that allows a shedload of power to be dumped into the Battery very quickly without risk of things catching fire. (Or at least an acceptable risk)

Smeg knows what you'd be charged, given the highest speed chargers are already 70p/kWh last time I looked, but it is possible.

There are already 350kW chargers, and I'm sure we'll be at the half-megawatt mark before too long!

Assuming they can keep them working long enough to be used...

I'm not sure if solid-state cells degrade from repeated rapid charging as much as normal cells do tho'.

Personally I'd still rather have the range and charge at home and a more gentle and battery-friendly rate.

[Strangely Brown]

Just now, Cyker said:

The biggest advantage of solid state batteries is they can be run at much higher temperatures - Combined with 800v charging, that allows a shedload of power to be dumped into the battery very quickly without risk of things catching fire. (Or at least an acceptable risk)

Smeg knows what you'd be charged, given the highest speed chargers are already 70p/kWh last time I looked, but it is possible.

 

Oh yes, I agree that it is technically possible. But is it practically possible? In order to maintain reasonable turnaround times at charging stations in an all/mostly BEV future the vast majority of charging stations will need to be 300kW+.

That will be a interesting logistical problem for the infrastructure planners, especially those at the LA level.

[Cyker]

In my opinion, no. They keep saying Don't worry the Grid has enough capacity! but it absolutely doesn't.

Imagine we get to 500kW chargers - Just 10 means we need *5 megawatts*. That'll add up fast. I don't see how they could do that without tapping electricity pylons directly and installing dedicated substations for each site. These multi-megawatt fluctuations to the grid will likely also require some resilience improvements.

So it's unlikely this could be done widely.

I can totally believe they are having trouble getting new chargers connected to the grid - It's known that there's a back log for connecting newly built solar and wind installations to the grid because the procedures were based around large power stations, not hundreds of small generators, and they can't cope.

That's why it's all the more important to repair and maintain the existing chargers, but instead they, just continue to build build build and let existing installations rot.

I think such things would have to be deployed strategically along arterial routes in dedicated charging hubs, but a lot would likely be required as many more EVs will need to use them than ICE cars would use e.g. motorway services petrol stations. Anyone who's tried to drive an EV to a holiday destination during a school holiday will likely have experienced the log jam of limited slow chargers and queues of EVs in e.g. services.

Personally I think mass lower-powered chargers (22-50kW say) in places like supermarkets, large retail parks, park-and-ride, basically everywhere there are large car parks were it's likely people will stay parked for long periods of time to do an activity, would be better. Will still need major electrical infrastructure upgrades, but charging speed won't matter so much if you're doing something instead of just twiddling your thumbs.

[Strangely Brown]

9 hours ago, Cyker said:

In my opinion, no. They keep saying Don't worry the Grid has enough capacity! but it absolutely doesn't.

Imagine we get to 500kW chargers - Just 10 means we need *5 megawatts*. That'll add up fast. I don't see how they could do that without tapping electricity pylons directly and installing dedicated substations for each site. These multi-megawatt fluctuations to the grid will likely also require some resilience improvements.

So it's unlikely this could be done widely.

[snip]

Personally I think mass lower-powered chargers (22-50kW say) in places like supermarkets, large retail parks, park-and-ride, basically everywhere there are large car parks were it's likely people will stay parked for long periods of time to do an activity, would be better. Will still need major electrical infrastructure upgrades, but charging speed won't matter so much if you're doing something instead of just twiddling your thumbs.

But.. but... If you put 100 chargers in a major retail park car-park at 50kW each... that's, ummm, 5 megawatts.

Expanding the charging network is something that is really easy for advocates to say but runs into problems of scale really quickly.

Anyway, a possibly better thing to solve right at the start would be a unified payment method. i.e. All charging provider should accept a normal contactless or chip/pin payment rather than forcing everyone to have different accounts for each.

 

[ernieb]

14 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

…………

Anyway, a possibly better thing to solve right at the start would be a unified payment method. i.e. All charging provider should accept a normal contactless or chip/pin payment rather than forcing everyone to have different accounts for each.

 

Totally agree with that, everytime I see a review of distance travelling in an BEV the issues of accounts/apps/logins comes up. I saw one were they were at Gateshead shopping centre and he could connect to the charger but his phone would not connect to the server unless he walked back to the centre when he returned the connection had timed out so he was unable to start the charge. The phone signal for his SIM had a poor reception where the chargers were located.

[Cyker]

56 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

But.. but... If you put 100 chargers in a major retail park car-park at 50kW each... that's, ummm, 5 megawatts.

Expanding the charging network is something that is really easy for advocates to say but runs into problems of scale really quickly.

Anyway, a possibly better thing to solve right at the start would be a unified payment method. i.e. All charging provider should accept a normal contactless or chip/pin payment rather than forcing everyone to have different accounts for each.

 

Yes - you see the problem; It's a vast amount of power no matter what (haha).

With big retail sites however, there is more likelihood there will be enough existing infrastructure to cope rather than requiring totally new infrastructure to be laid, plus having 100 chargers will serve far more people and have more redundancy against failure than 10.

Totally agree with the payment - At the moment you need an app for far too many of these chargers and that's unacceptable.

All chargers should have hard lines, not relying on mobile signals (Or if they do, go in to free vend if they can't communicate), and be able to take at least contactless payment. Furthermore, preferential payment should be banned - Being charged more to use a credit card rather than their app or pre-payment account is absolutely unacceptable.

 

[Flatcoat]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

Yes - you see the problem; It's a vast amount of power no matter what (haha).

With big retail sites however, there is more likelihood there will be enough existing infrastructure to cope rather than requiring totally new infrastructure to be laid, plus having 100 chargers will serve far more people and have more redundancy against failure than 10.

Totally agree with the payment - At the moment you need an app for far too many of these chargers and that's unacceptable.

All chargers should have hard lines, not relying on mobile signals (Or if they do, go in to free vend if they can't communicate), and be able to take at least contactless payment. Furthermore, preferential payment should be banned - Being charged more to use a credit card rather than their app or pre-payment account is absolutely unacceptable.

 

No, big retail sites do not have that capacity within the infrastructure. It is not just the on site supply but off site capacity too. And even if there is, when that supply is maxed out it prohibits any further development. There are parts of the UK where house building is on hold indefinitely because the local grid is at capacity. But why should a retailer pay the horrendous costs of installing the charging infrastructure in the first place? 
I do agree the charging payment process has to be sorted out and if it needs legislation then so be it. However I still think EV’s in their current form are like 8 track stereos or Betamax recorders……. 

 

[philip42h]

4 hours ago, Flatcoat said:

But why should a retailer pay the horrendous costs of installing the charging infrastructure in the first place? 

I appreciate that the question is largely rhetorical, but for precisely the same reasons that they build superstores and petrol filling stations in the first place - to entice customers onto the site and then make money from them selling produce and fuel. Economically, there probably is a good case for the retailers making these investments ...

But even if that part were an easy, no-brainer, it would do little to ameliorate the underlying power generation and distribution issues.

Now, if we were in the PRC, with a President for life, the state might decide to overcome all these sort of problems because it could do so 'simply'. But we are not; we live in a democracy with parliaments elected on a 5 year term ... and to go any further might start to get political and I certainly wouldn't want to do that ...

[Flatcoat]

49 minutes ago, philip42h said:

I appreciate that the question is largely rhetorical, but for precisely the same reasons that they build superstores and petrol filling stations in the first place - to entice customers onto the site and then make money from them selling produce and fuel. Economically, there probably is a good case for the retailers making these investments ...

But even if that part were an easy, no-brainer, it would do little to ameliorate the underlying power generation and distribution issues.

Now, if we were in the PRC, with a President for life, the state might decide to overcome all these sort of problems because it could do so 'simply'. But we are not; we live in a democracy with parliaments elected on a 5 year term ... and to go any further might start to get political and I certainly wouldn't want to do that ...

You clearly do not understand the supermarket business model especially when it comes to petrol forecourts. 

[yossarian247]

On 6/13/2023 at 9:44 PM, Cyker said:

In my opinion, no. They keep saying Don't worry the Grid has enough capacity! but it absolutely doesn't.

Imagine we get to 500kW chargers - Just 10 means we need *5 megawatts*. That'll add up fast. I don't see how they could do that without tapping electricity pylons directly and installing dedicated substations for each site. These multi-megawatt fluctuations to the grid will likely also require some resilience improvements.

So it's unlikely this could be done widely.

I can totally believe they are having trouble getting new chargers connected to the grid - It's known that there's a back log for connecting newly built solar and wind installations to the grid because the procedures were based around large power stations, not hundreds of small generators, and they can't cope.

That's why it's all the more important to repair and maintain the existing chargers, but instead they, just continue to build build build and let existing installations rot.

I think such things would have to be deployed strategically along arterial routes in dedicated charging hubs, but a lot would likely be required as many more EVs will need to use them than ICE cars would use e.g. motorway services petrol stations. Anyone who's tried to drive an EV to a holiday destination during a school holiday will likely have experienced the log jam of limited slow chargers and queues of EVs in e.g. services.

Personally I think mass lower-powered chargers (22-50kW say) in places like supermarkets, large retail parks, park-and-ride, basically everywhere there are large car parks were it's likely people will stay parked for long periods of time to do an activity, would be better. Will still need major electrical infrastructure upgrades, but charging speed won't matter so much if you're doing something instead of just twiddling your thumbs.

National Grid claim they have sufficient spare capacity to cover a wholesale switch to EVs, but what people often seem to forget is that the National Grid is only the high-voltage part of the network. The real capacity issues are with the local distribution networks, i.e. the low voltage stuff, which feeds power into dwellings, shops and business premises. That is the part of the network which will need huge upgrades as it was never designed with these sort of loads in mind.

It annoys me when I hear claims of 'It's fine, National Grid say they can cope' because National Grid are only one part of the over all network!

[Strangely Brown]

Additionally to this is that the National Grid is only distribution. We do not have the generating capacity for a wholesale switch to BEVs and good old renewables are not going to cut it. Pretty sure I just read that two coal fired power stations had to be fired up to cover load in recent hot weather (A/C and fans etc) since, apparently, solar panels do not play well with the high temperatures.

It's all a bit of a mess really.

[yossarian247]

1 hour ago, Strangely Brown said:

Additionally to this is that the National Grid is only distribution. We do not have the generating capacity for a wholesale switch to BEVs and good old renewables are not going to cut it. Pretty sure I just read that two coal fired power stations had to be fired up to cover load in recent hot weather (A/C and fans etc) since, apparently, solar panels do not play well with the high temperatures.

It's all a bit of a mess really.

Yes exactly. The grid may be fine, it's what's connected to either end of it that's the problem!

Ratcliffe On Soar is on standby and they are currently in talks to bring part of Drax back on line. Sadly West Burton A (not far from me) closed a few weeks ago. Meanwhile China is building two new coal fired power stations per week on average...

[Nick72]

On 6/13/2023 at 2:19 PM, Roger_N said:

Personally, I would take the view that once you are down to 40-50% of charge remaining you need to be looking for a charge point and taking advantage of what’s available as this should give more choice of places to charge. As once you get to 10-20% that’s when range issues kick in.

The downside of course is that you will need more stops, they should be shorter but possibly more annoying as in having to break the journey more often.

It's good advice 

[Nick72]

On 6/13/2023 at 5:12 PM, Cyker said:

That is the whole difficulty; Chemical fuels have something like 2 orders of magnitude better energy density than batteries, so even if an ICE is only 20% efficient vs an EV's 95% efficiency, the EV still can't get close to the energy at the ICE's disposal. When things like diesel and the newer hybrids are closer to 40% efficient, that just makes the shortfall even worse.

The only way to fix this is invent better batteries - We'd only need 2x the energy density and that would be enough for most people; I worked out for my hypothetical Yaris EV I'd need 120kWh, maybe 100kW if the EV is super efficient, for it to meet my needs, but we're a long way off that in something the size of a Yaris!!

I am a bit concerned about the state (haha) of solid state batteries at the moment - They haven't shown anywhere near the energy density increases I'd been hoping for - 10s of percent vs the 2x I was hoping for.

Also, Toyota seem like they're positioning themselves for short-range rapid-charging EVs, so e.g. you only have a 100-150 miles of range but you can charge in 5-10 minutes instead of 30-60 minutes.

This does have a lot of advantages, as their cars will be lighter and more efficient, but makes them very dependent on the charger network, which I'd not be willing to risk - At the end of the day, I have a car to get from A to B with minimum hassle and travel time. If I wanted to stop repeatedly and didn't care about travel time, I'd take a bus or a train!

Edit: I read that article - Maybe I'm wrong and they changed their minds! That 700+ mile car in the article looks *mahoosive* tho'... Definitely not a contender for a Yaris-replacement!  

Agreed but there's a but. Whilst the 'specific energy' (energy per unit mass) is vastly different to chemical energy combustion in fuels there is the following to consider:

1. Combustion efficiency is very poor plus mechanical transmission losses.

2. No huge and heavy engine and ancillary systems. Power 'density' and specific power in electric motors is tripling over the next 10 years and down to nothing more than configuration changes and manufacturing improvements. Nothing exotic. So very small but powerful electric motors.

3. Specific energy of Battery tech is tripling over the next 10 years. Nothing exotic factored here. Breakthroughs could make it a factor of 5.

4. The mass of the fuel, tankage, pumps, pipework for ICE.

5. New vehicle design freedoms. Less complexity.

But, new problems also still arise despite us getting to say a 700 mile range vehicle in the next 4 or 5 years. On a 7.4kW home wall box that's probably going to take a full day to charge so planning and non contiguous long trips required.

[Nick72]

On 6/13/2023 at 6:24 PM, Strangely Brown said:

How are they going to do that?

Even if you allow that the car is super efficient and can get 5 miles/kW you would still take 24 minutes to get 100 miles of range from a 50kW charger.

The only way to get close to ICE refuelling time[*] is to charge at 100kW+ (100 miles at 150kW - 8 mins, 200kW - 6 mins) assuming both that the car/battery can take it and that the grid can support a network of charging stations with that kind of draw.

The problem of transferring large quantities of electrical energy from point A (grid) to point B (car) in a short space of time is not trivial - ok, correction, it is trivial but not if you want both ends to be useable afterwards. 🙂

 

[*] ... but not range. A RAV4 HEV will take on 500 miles of range in about 5 minutes.

Or a liquid electrolyte 😉

[Nick72]

On 6/13/2023 at 9:44 PM, Cyker said:

In my opinion, no. They keep saying Don't worry the Grid has enough capacity! but it absolutely doesn't.

Imagine we get to 500kW chargers - Just 10 means we need *5 megawatts*. That'll add up fast. I don't see how they could do that without tapping electricity pylons directly and installing dedicated substations for each site. These multi-megawatt fluctuations to the grid will likely also require some resilience improvements.

So it's unlikely this could be done widely.

I can totally believe they are having trouble getting new chargers connected to the grid - It's known that there's a back log for connecting newly built solar and wind installations to the grid because the procedures were based around large power stations, not hundreds of small generators, and they can't cope.

That's why it's all the more important to repair and maintain the existing chargers, but instead they, just continue to build build build and let existing installations rot.

I think such things would have to be deployed strategically along arterial routes in dedicated charging hubs, but a lot would likely be required as many more EVs will need to use them than ICE cars would use e.g. motorway services petrol stations. Anyone who's tried to drive an EV to a holiday destination during a school holiday will likely have experienced the log jam of limited slow chargers and queues of EVs in e.g. services.

Personally I think mass lower-powered chargers (22-50kW say) in places like supermarkets, large retail parks, park-and-ride, basically everywhere there are large car parks were it's likely people will stay parked for long periods of time to do an activity, would be better. Will still need major electrical infrastructure upgrades, but charging speed won't matter so much if you're doing something instead of just twiddling your thumbs.

Exactly why I won't have a smart meter. They aren't remotely limiting or switching off my electric.😂

[Nick72]

Actually I'm now thinking about a Polestar 4 possibility. 370 mile range, dual motor, and it's a bit bigger than the Volvo. 

 

[ernieb]

No rear window not sure I could live with that, there are just times when I want the reassurance of being able to see for myself.

[Nick72]

3 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Actually I'm now thinking about a Polestar 4 possibility. 370 mile range, dual motor, and it's a bit bigger than the Volvo. 

 

Edit... Seems that some reviews say 370 miles for the dual motor and some only 270. The latter is not enough!

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

Edit... Seems that some reviews say 370 miles for the dual motor and some only 270. The latter is not enough!

I tend to go by the EVDB estimates - they suggest a Real Range of 295 miles, but the only figure that I am interested in in the Highway - Cold Weather range of 210 miles (c.f. the bZ4X equivalent of 140 miles).

[Cyker]

4 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Agreed but there's a but. Whilst the 'specific energy' (energy per unit mass) is vastly different to chemical energy combustion in fuels there is the following to consider:

1. Combustion efficiency is very poor plus mechanical transmission losses.

2. No huge and heavy engine and ancillary systems. Power 'density' and specific power in electric motors is tripling over the next 10 years and down to nothing more than configuration changes and manufacturing improvements. Nothing exotic. So very small but powerful electric motors.

3. Specific energy of battery tech is tripling over the next 10 years. Nothing exotic factored here. Breakthroughs could make it a factor of 5.

4. The mass of the fuel, tankage, pumps, pipework for ICE.

5. New vehicle design freedoms. Less complexity.

But, new problems also still arise despite us getting to say a 700 mile range vehicle in the next 4 or 5 years. On a 7.4kW home wall box that's probably going to take a full day to charge so planning and non contiguous long trips required.

I already talked about 1, and 3 is an I'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it thing (I've been waiting over a decade for a major Battery improvement, but so far it's only been very incremental, and often just by cutting safety margins). 5 was something I'd hoped for, but has been scuttled by safety mandates, limiting the creative freedoms available (At least I assume that's why all EVs are still minimally different to ICE cars in terms of design, shape, positioning, packaging etc.)

But I call BS on 2 and 4 - I believed that too at first, and yes electric motors are smaller than engines, but you have to ask yourself why do EVs, esp. at the smaller end of the scale, have so much worse space than ICE cars when they have this huge space advantage for their components?

All the EVs they like to use to demonstrate this 'extra space' in, e.g. front and back 'trunks', are gigantic, usually around 5m or more long. Most EVs have a tiny 'frunk', or none at all. The closest EV competitor to a Yaris is still probably a Zoe, and the space in that is awful - It's closer to an Aygo inside than it is a Yaris - Where'd all this claimed space go?

And that is because it's not just the size of the motors - The people that talk about that as one of EV's big advantages conveniently leave out all the supporting electronics and ancillaries, which take up a surprisingly large amount of space, particularly the inverter and speed controllers; These bring the total volume of 'engine' components up to the same level as a small ICE, and while they could relocate them to different parts of the car, they never do, so this supposed 'engine size' advantage is basically a lie. There is also nearly as much cabling and pipework for various coolant loops, hydraulics, AC and all the extra pumps needed etc. so there is pretty much no advantage there either.

And I haven't even mentioned the Battery yet...

The fact is, if you factor in everything except the fuel tank and Battery, EVs have only a slight advantage on the volume needed to dedicate to the drive train and supporting components, and if you include the fuel tank vs battery then EVs are always going to loose (At least until this long awaited battery breakthrough comes to market...!).

 

[TonyHSD]

The ev that the car market needs but haven’t got yet is the upcoming vw id2. This car if turns out as presented recently will demolish all brands and models especially in the smaller car segment. This could easily kill not only Yaris like cars but also Corolla hatchback size too., that good it is on paper.
I am not holding my breath as I did have a high hopes for Honda e as it was promising on paper too but later to be killed by their own price and ultra short range. , plus the screen stupidity that recently seems to consume the manufacturers and owners., nobody need that. 

What an ev needs to be the best car is : -  small size, a round steering wheel, one screen only either middle or behind steering, not above. A Battery under floor without sacrificing the leg comfort, because most ev has ultra uncomfortable rear seats including Tesla and Toyota, enough space for 4, no frunk definitely, it’s a stupid US idea too, just a boot enough for a weekly shopping or 4 small suitcases. Modern and clean design inside and out without unnecessary design elements, exactly how vw id2 looks.
And no one needs a range of crazy miles, if the car can do 200 miles real world it would be perfectly fine for most people, perhaps very few drive more than that in one day or one go. Why do you need to drag with you a heavy Battery. The cars needs to be as light as possible to handle well and being efficient. This ex Volvo seems to have a lot common with the id2 although in different car territory and that’s why I really like it , at least on the tv what I have seen to date. And because it’s Chinese made it does not matter, many goods are made in china and they are of a high quality and standards, China and Korea are the new Japan since long ago 👌

[Flatcoat]

3 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

The ev that the car market needs but haven’t got yet is the upcoming vw id2. This car if turns out as presented recently will demolish all brands and models especially in the smaller car segment. This could easily kill not only Yaris like cars but also Corolla hatchback size too., that good it is on paper.
I am not holding my breath as I did have a high hopes for Honda e as it was promising on paper too but later to be killed by their own price and ultra short range. , plus the screen stupidity that recently seems to consume the manufacturers and owners., nobody need that. 

What an ev needs to be the best car is : -  small size, a round steering wheel, one screen only either middle or behind steering, not above. A battery under floor without sacrificing the leg comfort, because most ev has ultra uncomfortable rear seats including Tesla and Toyota, enough space for 4, no frunk definitely, it’s a stupid US idea too, just a boot enough for a weekly shopping or 4 small suitcases. Modern and clean design inside and out without unnecessary design elements, exactly how vw id2 looks.
And no one needs a range of crazy miles, if the car can do 200 miles real world it would be perfectly fine for most people, perhaps very few drive more than that in one day or one go. Why do you need to drag with you a heavy battery. The cars needs to be as light as possible to handle well and being efficient. This ex Volvo seems to have a lot common with the id2 although in different car territory and that’s why I really like it , at least on the tv what I have seen to date. And because it’s Chinese made it does not matter, many goods are made in china and they are of a high quality and standards, China and Korea are the new Japan since long ago 👌

😡Who are you to dictate what range people should have? The bandwidth use of cars outside of Islington goes beyond city dwellers telling everyone else how they should live. I like travelling by car. Our annual driving holidays cover 800 mile trips to Scotland, Cornwall and 2500 mile Austria/Italy/CZ and so on. They entail driving over 300 miles in a day, towing a caravan. My day job can often entail a 200+ round trip. Does anyone ever drive to the seaside on a bank holiday? Imagine all those thousands of cars all trying to recharge before they can return home?! The sooner there is a public uprising and revolution against all this one size fits all dictatorial legislation that is going to make us all much poorer and allegedly in the name of climate change, the better.