12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[Roy124]

Terry, I asked as you implied you had a gizmo.

To charge or jump a Yaris Cross, when facing the engine bay,  on the right is a flat box which is a fuse box.  The Battery is in front of that.

You can charge directly on the battery  or open the positive terminal in the fuse box.

Given you don't have any equipment  and are talking of the AA, call them.  They will explain and show you.

[Gren]

I'm going to be away soon so won't be using my hybrid for about 3 weeks.  I have a Noco Genius trickle charger - is it safe/advisable to leave the charger on AGM maintenance mode connected to the car for this period of time?  or is it better to not connect it and pray the Battery doesn't die while I'm away.  The car will be left at home, so I can leave the charger plugged in.

[jthspace]

1 hour ago, Gren said:

I'm going to be away soon so won't be using my hybrid for about 3 weeks.  I have a Noco Genius trickle charger - is it safe/advisable to leave the charger on AGM maintenance mode connected to the car for this period of time?  or is it better to not connect it and pray the battery doesn't die while I'm away.  The car will be left at home, so I can leave the charger plugged in.

I leave my 1993 MX5 on a Battery Minder whilst it is off-road November through to March/April and never had a problem. 

[Jeremy Eves]

My father bought a new Yaris Cross in Dec 2022. Unfortunately he had a long spell in hospital in May/June. I had to call the AA 3 times for a start due to 12V Battery issue, eventually contacting dealer who charged it fully. Since then the car has been used for a run of 2 hours once per week - a good run for Battery charging. But the 12 months service report comes back saying there is an issue with the 12V Battery!!

Dealer response is that the car is not being driven enough - hard to believe when it is getting a long run once per week. They originally said that Toyota designed the car for annual mileage of 8000 - 10000 miles. If that is the case it seems to me that my father, in his 90's was mis-sold this vehicle. He wasn't asked about annual mileage, and its a fairly safe assumption that most 90+ year olds dont drive that sort of mileage in a year. Mainly local short runs.

Dealers best advice was to change to a different car more suitable for application - that's an admission that this was mis-selling! Of course no salesman will make money by finding barriers to sale, especially in the motor trade! To change would mean a loss of £4000 / 5000 given the large year 1 depreciation.

I am really annoyed by a large national dealer and Toyota. I am unlikely to do business again with either.  

[Mojo1010]

They have not mis sold the car imo. The problem was the extended period of non driving, the Battery will not get back to the new level even if it's driven for 100 hrs a week.

We have members here doing 3000 miles a year and no problem. It's damaged, get a new Battery and the problem will be solved with current 2hrs a week driving. Put a 45ah one in, current Battery is only around 35ah. 

[Max_Headroom]

As said above he has not been miss sold the car in fact its nice to see a sales person actually put a figure on it.

8000 miles per year = 154 per week your  father is driving  2 hours a week if he could keep his speed to 60 mph for the full 2 hours he would only cover 120 miles and i imagine in the real world it will be a lot less than that and no where near the 153 stated by the sales rep to keep the car from letting him down.

Having said that i have said several times in the various 12v Battery threads here  that in my opinion Toyota sales should ask potential buyers what their average weekly mileage is and if its low they should explain they may need to use  "Ready" mode to keep the Battery topped up on weeks they are not going to use it much.

 

Quote

They originally said that Toyota designed the car for annual mileage of 8000 - 10000 miles.

Quote

Since then the car has been used for a run of 2 hours once per week 

 

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, Max_Headroom said:

my opinion Toyota sales should ask potential buyers what their average weekly mileage is and if its low they should explain they may need to use  "Ready" mode to keep the battery topped up on weeks they are not going to use it 

If you buy the car with a PCP you set an annual mileage limit.  Depending on ones understanding of the question which  might be "is 8000 miles enough" or "what mileage will you do?" The salesman should give advice.

When we bought out Corolla the salesman suggested 8k but I opted for 12k. Without lock down we would have done more.  With the Yaris Cross we are at 13.5k in 14 months.

[Max_Headroom]

1 hour ago, Roy124 said:

If you buy the car with a PCP you set an annual mileage limit.  Depending on ones understanding of the question which  might be "is 8000 miles enough" or "what mileage will you do?" The salesman should give advice.

So its likely he misunderstood the information given and the sales man/woman was not saying  they needed to do 8000 miles a year to keep the 12v Battery charged they were asking his  total mileage for the year.

I must have skipped this earlier and see (quote below) it says  "He wasn't asked about annual mileage" which makes it likely what i posted above is the case.

I do think it stinks that Toyota sales dont ask potential customers their weekly usage before taking £25,000 off them knowing full well if they dont drive them regularly they will be let down.

 

Quote

Dealer response is that the car is not being driven enough - hard to believe when it is getting a long run once per week. They originally said that Toyota designed the car for annual mileage of 8000 - 10000 miles. If that is the case it seems to me that my father, in his 90's was mis-sold this vehicle. He wasn't asked about annual mileage, and its a fairly safe assumption that most 90+ year olds dont drive that sort of mileage in a year. Mainly local short runs.

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Eves said:

Unfortunately he had a long spell in hospital in May/June. I had to call the AA 3 times for a start due to 12V battery issue, eventually contacting dealer who charged it fully

The long stay in hospital in May/June could be up to 8 weeks, and if the car wasn't driven in that period, the Battery has probably been damaged. Probably not a warranty issue, as the lack of use during this period is the culprit, and subsequent use since is neither here nor there. At the end of the day, would have thought the issue will be solved by a new Battery.

Nowadays it isn't just Toyotas that will be affected by this type of scenario.

[Rhymes with Paris]

Aye, even though my car is not a hybrid, the 12v (only)battery died during a spell in hospital in march this year.

The weather turned cold and snowy, and the car was stood for around 20 days.

It's a bit of an unfortunate double whammy really, the being stuck in hospital and a Battery dieing on top of that.

It's handy if someone can start the car, and even drive it a while,if insured and trusted, but if no one can do that,it meant for me a new yuasa.

 

 

[Gren]

Would it be worth considering keeping a Battery conditioning charger connected when not is use for a period?  

However in my YC that would mean keeping the lid of the fusebox open as the +ve terminal is inside, and I'd be concerned about water getting in.  Does anyone else leave a charger connected for a long time?

[Cyker]

It seems newer cars are increasingly more susceptible to the 12v Battery draining prematurely, and I agree that the manufacturers really need to do something about it - It's ridiculous that I could leave my crappy old Fiesta for months without an issue but people are having dead 12vs after a week.

But the owners need to take some responsibility too - I remember one poster who was annoyed their car was unusable after they came back from holiday, but what they'd done is bought the car then left it parked up and immediately gone on holiday, so the car had probably been sat in a holding area for ages during the pandemic before being shipped here, then sat with the dealer for a few days while they (didn't) PDI it, then taken home and left for another 3 weeks - The poor Battery didn't have a chance!

The first thing I did with mine is take it on a 2 hour hoon, as I do whenever I get a new car (Just to get a feel for it you understand    ), and I use it regularly for work and it's been fine after being left for 2 weeks, and once I left the sidelights on all day and despite getting worried when I saw this when returning to the car, it was a total non-issue.

... That said I have recently bought a Noco GB20 from Halfords with my Toyota Owners Club Halfords Discount card </shill>. Just in case someone else that isn't me has a flat Battery.    

 

[Mojo1010]

1 hour ago, Gren said:

Would it be worth considering keeping a battery conditioning charger connected when not is use for a period?  

However in my YC that would mean keeping the lid of the fusebox open as the +ve terminal is inside, and I'd be concerned about water getting in.  Does anyone else leave a charger connected for a long time?

There are some members that put some connectors directly onto the Battery under the rear seat, trial the cables out for conditioning. 

[Derek.w]

Today after 3 short trips I decided to connect my ctek charger to the car as rain is forcast for the next few days but after lunch I was back on the road unexpected long drive.

My connectors are directly to the Battery via its own independent fuse thats also 2 connectors via the same fuse one for ctek the other is for a solar panel or any other kit I want to connect.

[anchorman]

I was a bit sceptical about tales of flat batteries on cars in normal use but my mate definitely had a Mutley (Mutla) Battery fail overnight for no reason.  I think the Turks should stick to sickly chocolate fillings.    Toyotas warranty bill will be out of the roof with this issue and they will stop using them when they can identify a supplier that will provide a modestly reliable Battery at a Turkish price but for now, just get a Yuasa Battery and end your problems.  If you go via the warranty channels, you’ll lose your car for two days while they charge it overnight (most batteries will test ok overnight even if they are shot) and then even if it fails the test, you’ll get a new Mutley and start again.

[Jasper.]

Will fitting the Yuasa Battery yourself affect the car's warranty in any way ?

[anchorman]

3 minutes ago, Jasper. said:

Will fitting the Yuasa battery yourself affect the car's warranty in any way ?

It’ll improve it Jasp.   It’s the Battery Yuasa recommends and they supply all Japanese built Toyotas so I think they’d have a hard time with that IF they ever knew it was fitted.  

[ChrisWilko]

On 10/25/2023 at 11:56 AM, ChrisWilko said:

Morning all.

We've had our Yaris GR Sport since early February. It was flawless with no problems whatsoever until early this month, where I noticed the mirrors folding out very slowly and when I got in it it refused to go into ready mode. It was fairly obvious at this point that the 12v battery was dead.

We do a lot of shorter journeys, with it being a small car, but our driving habits have not changed within the 8+ months we had been using it without issue.

I managed to source a Noco trickle charger and fully recharged the 12v battery. It has been fine again until today, where the 12v battery is now fully depleted again. That's just under 2.5 weeks from full charge to dead, and we sat running the car for ~20mins in a car park, last week.

Does this mean the 12v battery could be compromised? I'm pretty unimpressed that it can be fine for ~8 months and then suddenly start depleting at this alarming rate.

I've contacted our local Toyota dealership who were quick to offer help, but after 2 failed call backs from their service department I find myself looking for advice.

Further to the above, I've been doing the 1hr running charge on ours. 

I also picked up a 12v adaptor that shows the 12v voltage. It was on 14.2 when we got home yesterday afternoon, so perfectly within limits.

The wife went out to it this morning and it's under 11v (lowest measurement) and won't start.

There must be something malfunctioning or not switching off, and draining the Battery. I've got a Dashcam wired to ignition live, but I've had that out of the car and checked it; if it was running then it would have recordings on the SD, but it doesn't. It switched off as it should. No internal lights on, as the car is visible from our door cam.

Moving house at the moment, so I've not had chance to get it booked in. Not what I need at the moment, trying to sort out a million and one other things. 🤦 

[MCatPG]

I expect this thread (Yaris Cross - consistently flat 12v battery) will be merged with the big 12V Battery thread, where the following comment has been made by me and others many times, but just in case anyone reads about this issue here and doesn't find the big thread....

The number of miles you do each week or each year is irrelevant.

What matters is the number of hours each week during which the car is in READY mode and the shift is in DRIVE. During these hours the car can be stationery (with HOLD selected) or in motion, it makes no difference.

Here is the reason, for anyone is isn't up to speed on all this yet. The 12V Battery is not charged in the conventional way by an alternator on the engine. It is charged using current from the high voltage traction Battery, which in turn is charged by the engine, which will start and run if you are charging while the vehicle is stationary. But the on-board charging will only happen while the car is in READY + DRIVE. That's the way the system has been designed and you have to live with it.

Alternatively the 12V battery can be charged by an external charger.

When does the 12V battery need to be charged, and how long for? It is impossible for the owner to know this unless they buy a voltmeter, as pointed out by several members, notably @Dala. 

I think the manufacturers of cars with this sort of system should do 3 things. They should design a warning to show on the instrument display when the 12V battery needs to be charged, they should provide a means of attaching an external charger without having leads trapped in doors or windows or under bonnets, and they should tell buyers about the need to keep the 12V battery at an acceptable SoC. At the moment the entire system including the design of the car and the information given to customers is set up to fail.

[Cowgirl]

My 12v Battery failed its health check at its first service, when I asked about it they said I hadn’t done enough miles (I had approximately 7000). My response was driving for 2 hours a day not enough?

They had no answer to that!

[Gren]

12 hours ago, Derek.w said:

My connectors are directly to the battery via its own independent fuse thats also 2 connectors via the same fuse one for ctek the other is for a solar panel or any other kit I want to connect.

Thanks Derek, that's a good idea, I might try to fit a fused always-live cigarette lighter socket directly to the Battery to use for the charger or solar panel.  Sorry, I'm new to the YC, how do I access the Battery and which side is it on?

[Max_Headroom]

1 hour ago, ChrisWilko said:

Further to the above, I've been doing the 1hr running charge on ours. 

Could you tell us exactly how much you use the car every week.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Similar topics merged

[Mooly]

2 hours ago, ChrisWilko said:

It was on 14.2 when we got home yesterday afternoon, so perfectly within limits.

So we assume it was fully charged although we have no idea what the actual capacity vs the rated capacity is.

2 hours ago, ChrisWilko said:

The wife went out to it this morning and it's under 11v (lowest measurement) and won't start.

So now totally discharged over say 18 hours. What is the rated capacity of these 'smaller' batteries? I recall around 36Ah give or take. If your Battery were at that capacity then you would have to be pulling a couple of amps for those 18 hours and that is not insubstantial. It would generate a lot of heat if something were drawing current.     

2 hours ago, ChrisWilko said:

There must be something malfunctioning or not switching off, and draining the battery.

 I think think the most likely scenario is just that the normal lowish (but still excessive in the scheme of things) background current draw has caused the Battery to deteriorate over time. Something like your Dashcam might be contributing to this because even when 'off' it may still have a quiescent current draw. Only way to know is to measure it.

It doesn't need much on a 24/7 basis to kill a Battery. The battery technology used (lead acid type that is a couple of century's old) is not suitable for this type of use.

 

[Cyker]

4 hours ago, Jasper. said:

Will fitting the Yuasa battery yourself affect the car's warranty in any way ?

It shouldn't - It's a standard consumable part and is the one specced for the car. I don't know why Toyota chose such a random make for their factory batteries as they usually favour decent brands like Yuasa for their batteries.

The Yuasa  rated for the Yaris Mk4 (Model HSB202) even has a higher capacity rating despite being the same size (45Ah vs 35 IIRC). IMHO it's what they should have fitted in the first place (Well, strictly speaking they should have fitted a deep-cycle Battery like the ones we use at work for backup power supplies, instead of regular starter batteries that can't be drained below 50% without degrading, but that's a gripe for a different thread  )

 

2 hours ago, Gren said:

Thanks Derek, that's a good idea, I might try to fit a fused always-live cigarette lighter socket directly to the battery to use for the charger or solar panel.  Sorry, I'm new to the YC, how do I access the battery and which side is it on?

It should be on the right-hand side (As you're sitting on it) of the rear passenger bench. You'll see a removable panel on the seat base you can unscrew to get at it.

If you see a panel with no screws, that's probably the hybrid Battery filter and you're looking on the wrong side