R4P... Seriously let me down

[Cyker]

I wish you luck; This is not the sort of experience I would have expected from a new Toyota!  

[philip42h]

48 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

Meanwhile I may need to take the 12V battery out and charge it as you say. Need to buy a charger. Last time I had one or needed one was on a D reg ford fiesta. Irony.

Any charger advice and is there a guide somewhere to getting at the 12V. Loathe largely because of the hassle time, cost of buying a smart charger, and because it is a company car I'm probably limited to what I should be meddling with.

OK, so I assumed that everyone has a smart charger - silly me! A Noco Genius 5, CTEK MXS 5.0 T or Halfords Smart Battery Charger 6A would do the job perfectly well. You'd be looking for a 5A smart charger since you don't need anything more to deal with the auxiliary Battery.

You don't need to mess about removing the auxiliary Battery, or even finding it hidden away in the boot. Just use the jump start point under the bonnet as you do with your Noco Boost ... 😉

 

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, ernieb said:

The 12v needs to be available for the heat exchanger to work correctly as it controls all the smart technology, switches, diverters and the like.

Nick, feel your pain, really do. It does sound like there is either a 12v battery issue, the 375v to 12v inverter or maybe an earthing issue which would likely affect lots of the 12v critical circuits. You’ve obviously tried the 12v battery terminals to check they are fully tight. There are a couple of other leads off the terminals from memory so I’d make sure they were secure.

Hope you manage to get it booked in PDQ and they find a fix. 

Thanks Ernie. Frustrating. Frequency business traveller and it's not what anyone needs. An unreliable car. I thought I'd seen the back of that with the Pukego. If at any point I'm in for a world of hassle with no fault found I'm just going to give the car back and go back to Mercedes. Solid car over the 3 years. 

Disappointing because up to this 12V issue the car has been solid and I enjoy driving it even over very long distances.

It's the hassle now of taking out all my tools and survival gear before dropping off with the dealers. Few hundred quid worth of stuff which I don't want to risk.

[Nick72]

47 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I wish you luck; This is not the sort of experience I would have expected from a new Toyota!  

Me neither. Surprised and disappointed.

[Nick72]

29 minutes ago, philip42h said:

OK, so I assumed that everyone has a smart charger - silly me! A Noco Genius 5, CTEK MXS 5.0 T or Halfords Smart Battery Charger 6A would do the job perfectly well. You'd be looking for a 5A smart charger since you don't need anything more to deal with the auxiliary battery.

You don't need to mess about removing the auxiliary battery, or even finding it hidden away in the boot. Just use the jump start point under the bonnet as you do with your Noco Boost ... 😉

 

Cheers Philip. Daft question but where do you run the cables when it is on charge or do I need to keep the bonnet up. Constantly lashes it down up here so a dry spell is rare.

[philip42h]

10 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

Cheers Philip. Daft question but where do you run the cables when it is on charge or do I need to keep the bonnet up. Constantly lashes it down up here so a dry spell is rare.

My car lives in the garage so I can easily leave the bonnet up. Outside, I'd just lower the bonnet on top of the mains cable and hope for a dryish night. If you can get it to the dealer sooner rather than later it might not be worth the hassle of recharging the Battery yourself - that may or may not be the issue anyway ...

[Gray86]

I understand your frustration, but it doesn’t have to be a chore, nor a poor investment. £65 on a CTEK MXS 5.0 is cheaper than a new 12v Battery. A full charge every now & again will prevent issues - maybe once every couple of weeks - once a month in winter, and every few months in summer. Is also VERY easy to do under the bonnet. The charger is pretty much plug & play. 
 

Looking to the future - EVs have small 12v batteries, as (like Toyota hybrids) they don’t need it to start an engine. Not unheard of for EV owners (non Toyota) to have problems. 
 

I also use my CTEK to keep the wife’s 8 year old non-hybrid Yaris Battery in good form. I’m expecting 12 years from that Battery which is the CTEK paid for all over again. 

[ernieb]

1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

Cheers Philip. Daft question but where do you run the cables when it is on charge or do I need to keep the bonnet up. Constantly lashes it down up here so a dry spell is rare.

Nick, I have the NOCO smart 5A charger and the adapter plug and lead that connects to the 12v Battery. I run a mains extension from the garage and feed it to the charger via the rear passenger door. The seals compress without damaging the cable the plug the charging into the mains. Car is closed and locked and the charger does its work, no need to disconnect. The adapter lead I leave permanently connected to the Battery and just connect the charger flying lead via the adapter socket. 

[ernieb]

Nick, this is the Battery connection adapter I used.

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004LWQ35Y/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

charger NOCO Genius 5

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0828HLDZC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Strangely Brown]

5 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Just happened again ffs.

4 hours of driving in 2 trips at the weekend. 2 short 2 mile trips this week. Unlocked it and wing mirrors unfolded in a laboured way. Wouldn't start. Crazy messages.

Boosted with NOCO LOCO. Put the engine on and sounds very rough. Tractor noise. 

 Air con not working. It's on but nothing is coming out. Tried auto, tried fan speed. Nothing from the air con. Not in Eco either. 

 

Think there's a problem with the 12V battery.

 

if I had wanted these shenanigans I would have stuck with the Pukegoat 😂.

 

Now my short trip has gone to the wall and I'm sitting in the car for a half hour whilst it charges the 12V or may be it isn't charging the 12V. 

Book it into the dealers? What do you think? It absolutely should have charged from the 4 hours of motorway and A road driving and two short trips shouldn't have killed the battery. Something is very wrong here. Just not sure what.

🤷

Silly question and please excuse me if this has already been covered but why don't you just hand the car back to Toyota and point at the warranty?

[Nick72]

4 hours ago, philip42h said:

My car lives in the garage so I can easily leave the bonnet up. Outside, I'd just lower the bonnet on top of the mains cable and hope for a dryish night. If you can get it to the dealer sooner rather than later it might not be worth the hassle of recharging the battery yourself - that may or may not be the issue anyway ...

Damn. No garage. COVID office lol.

No external plug socket either where the car is so I think I'm going to can it.

[Nick72]

3 hours ago, Gray86 said:

I understand your frustration, but it doesn’t have to be a chore, nor a poor investment. £65 on a CTEK MXS 5.0 is cheaper than a new 12v battery. A full charge every now & again will prevent issues - maybe once every couple of weeks - once a month in winter, and every few months in summer. Is also VERY easy to do under the bonnet. The charger is pretty much plug & play. 
 

Looking to the future - EVs have small 12v batteries, as (like Toyota hybrids) they don’t need it to start an engine. Not unheard of for EV owners (non Toyota) to have problems. 
 

I also use my CTEK to keep the wife’s 8 year old non-hybrid Yaris battery in good form. I’m expecting 12 years from that battery which is the CTEK paid for all over again. 

It's failing after just 2 days after a 4 hour run charging the 12V so it would be a chore doing it every few days. Wouldn't be so bad if I had a garage and external plug socket but I don't and 9 out of 10 days a year it lashes it down here. Shouldn't have to faff like that with a new car. That's just terrible engineering. No other excuse for it.

[Nick72]

3 hours ago, ernieb said:

Nick, I have the NOCO smart 5A charger and the adapter plug and lead that connects to the 12v battery. I run a mains extension from the garage and feed it to the charger via the rear passenger door. The seals compress without damaging the cable the plug the charging into the mains. Car is closed and locked and the charger does its work, no need to disconnect. The adapter lead I leave permanently connected to the battery and just connect the charger flying lead via the adapter socket. 

Thanks Ernie. Last resort. I'm thinking of it goes flat after 2 days of 4 hours driving something has to be wrong. Really wrong. If this is the norm and no fault found the car is going back like the Pukego. I'm going back to Mercedes.

[Nick72]

2 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

Silly question and please excuse me if this has already been covered but why don't you just hand the car back to Toyota and point at the warranty?

I can and more. Company car so well covered there. But this only happened for the second time in as many weeks just earlier today so I'll be on the phone to them tomorrow for them to get it sorted. If they can't it goes back and I order a Merc again.

[ernieb]

The trouble with going to the garage with Battery issues is that they generally measure the voltage and if it's above a certain number then it's OK to go. Nick has some pretty detailed issues with clear periods of driving, parking etc. so I'd think he should be able to have a reasoned discussion with the garage. He might also want to point to this thread on the forum of people with similar issues as support. The PHEV does seem to be more prone to the problem with its large high tech heat pump?

@Nick72, hope you get it sorted, it's basically worked well for you as a business car and for your trips north from previous comments, fingers crossed you get to talk to a tech who's on the ball.

[robo1]

11 hours ago, Gray86 said:

Looking to the future - EVs have small 12v batteries, as (like Toyota hybrids) they don’t need it to start an engine. Not unheard of for EV owners (non Toyota) to have problems

Wife has has a Suzuki Ignis SZ5. Has stop start and other tech. Low mileage and sits in the garage a lot of the time. Starts first time never worry about it. Same Battery capacity as the PHEV.

Difference it’s got an alternator which I suspect has a much greater charging rate then the DC to DC converter of the hybrids. 

[ernieb]

54 minutes ago, robo1 said:

Wife has has a Suzuki Ignis SZ5. Has stop start and other tech. Low mileage and sits in the garage a lot of the time. Starts first time never worry about it. Same battery capacity as the PHEV.

Difference it’s got an alternator which I suspect has a much greater charging rate then the DC to DC converter of the hybrids. 

Is that an AGM or MF 12v Battery? The PHEV has a MF Battery and frankly never seems to be ‘fully’ charged or the initial load when the car is put into READY mode is enough to cause a significant drop in the terminal voltage.

[robo1]

It’s an AGM Battery I assume because of the stop start function. I agree the Battery never seems to be fully charged other than after you have used a charger.

 

[ernieb]

So the alternator will be providing a much higher charge voltage to the AGM Battery, typically 14.6 - 14.8v. The MF Battery is typically 14.4v. My PHEV is typically 14.3v - occasionally not often seen 14.4v. This usually drops to 14.2v very quickly. So it appears to be charging but at a reduced voltage? When I've charged the 12v Battery with a smart charger it's delivered directly to the battery at 14.4v. 

[nlee]

Only a feeling but it seems to be that the lower the Battery, the less it seems to charge from the inverter (it seems to drop from 14.6v running to 12.6v sooner)  Maybe a charge from a smart charger will bring it back in the short term but it seems like this set up is prematurely knackering these batteries.

[Nick72]

9 hours ago, ernieb said:

The trouble with going to the garage with battery issues is that they generally measure the voltage and if it's above a certain number then it's OK to go. Nick has some pretty detailed issues with clear periods of driving, parking etc. so I'd think he should be able to have a reasoned discussion with the garage. He might also want to point to this thread on the forum of people with similar issues as support. The PHEV does seem to be more prone to the problem with its large high tech heat pump?

@Nick72, hope you get it sorted, it's basically worked well for you as a business car and for your trips north from previous comments, fingers crossed you get to talk to a tech who's on the ball.

Great car Ernie. Best I've had including Mercs up to this issue. A one off I could deal with but twice in as many weeks when the Battery ought to have got a good charge from 4 hours of driving is a puzzle.

Challenge now is the dealer can't fit me in until I think it was the 5th or 6th of December. Two day job as they are going to check it, charge it, and leave it overnight to recheck it. Hopefully that means putting an ammeter in line to measure any residual current draw when car is switched off and any over and above expected current draw when it's on. That would indicate a short or failing sub system more effectively. Problem is you never get to speak to the actual technician so I've relayed this to their admin. God knows what will happen. The last time it went in for a service, the safety recall (which they couldn't do because Leroy wasn't in), and fob function to open all doors and windows on long press (they forgot to do that) the receptionist said, oh you've asked for an air con flush. Nope. I did not. On an 11 month old car? Grrr.

So for me this is due to...

1. Dud 12V... Before and after charge... voltage check including under load 

2. Shorting including equipment failure and residual or over ambitious current draw... Present and overnight checks with ammeter.

3. Inverter failure. Not charging 12V from traction Battery. Check output of inverter.

4. Loose wires. Shorts, or disconnections causing failing to charge. Earth bonds included. Wiring loom and connectors check including chassis earth points.

 

Am I confident they're going to address all of the above? Absolute zero. That's minus 273.15C from memory.🤣

[Nick72]

9 hours ago, robo1 said:

Wife has has a Suzuki Ignis SZ5. Has stop start and other tech. Low mileage and sits in the garage a lot of the time. Starts first time never worry about it. Same battery capacity as the PHEV.

Difference it’s got an alternator which I suspect has a much greater charging rate then the DC to DC converter of the hybrids. 

So I've had no issue either in 13 or so months up until a couple of weeks ago. That's included periods of probably 3 weeks sitting on the drive when I was away and just lots of short trips for weeks before that. Literally got used for less than half hour a week for a couple of months and across 4 or 5 super short runs a week. Always started, no indication of anything wrong. Hence I assumed it must have been charging the 12V from being plugged into the 7.4kW wall box via the inverter. But I think we can put that to bed now. It doesn't.

[Derek.w]

No need to remove the Battery for charging I am using a CTEK MXS 3.8

If you have a volt meter you Battery will be charging at 13.5 to 14.5 volts from the DC to DC converter & the same readings from your Battery charger but going up in smaller steps.

[Derek.w]

Note green light on ctek is Battery full 

Next one down is 80% fully charged

[nlee]

2 hours ago, Derek.w said:

Note green light on ctek is battery full 

Next one down is 80% fully charged

Mine is red less than 30 mins after a full charge on the Ctek.