Dealership Scammed me on Brake Fluid Change

[Parts-King]

3 minutes ago, Tomv said:

I have experience with fluid change on my Fords and Skodas in dealerships and every time they just sucked out the fluid from the reservoi and topped it up. I asked them and was explained it’s ok. Did my own research (another garages, friends, google) and got resolution that is ok.

That is slapdash and not how it should be done, in a Hybrid, if done properly you will use closer to 1.0L of fluid. 

[Tomv]

7 minutes ago, Parts-King said:

That is slapdash and not how it should be done, in a Hybrid, if done properly you will use closer to 1.0L of fluid. 

Sry for mystification, I didn’t think that it could be different for hybrids. I have old school manual transmission 🙂 I  checked official Toyota’s web and for my Corolla it’s 0,5L and that could be more or less equal to the amount in reservoir and  I will be charged 8£ for that. 

[Roy124]

Shane, there you have it.  How do you bleed without disturbing bleed caps.  Get an independent opinion. 

The procedure also specifies items that will be disturbed.  Are there any witness marks  to show these have been disturbed?  Again an expert independent opinion might be obtained.

If you get positive opinions go in with a friendly smile.  You know you will win.  If they don't roll over keep your smile in place say see you in court.

[yossarian247]

1 hour ago, Tomv said:

Sry for mystification, I didn’t think that it could be different for hybrids. I have old school manual transmission 🙂 I  checked official Toyota’s web and for my Corolla it’s 0,5L and that could be more or less equal to the amount in reservoir and  I will be charged 8£ for that. 

Replacing what's sat in the reservoir but leaving old fluid in the master cylinder, ABS pump and brake lines is a total waste of time. They frankly may as well not bother doing anything at all as do that. 

I've owned a couple of Skodas BTW and the dealers bled the brakes right through to the bleed nipples on all four calipers whenever they changed the fluid. I know because I checked them afterwards. That's the correct way of changing brake fluid, hybrid or not. Just changing what's in the reservoir is what slapdash mechanics do to make it look like they've changed the fluid when they can't be bothered to do the job properly. 

 

[SB1500]

3 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

Wheels on or off you cannot do it without leaving a stain on the end of the nipple or in the little rubber cap unless the nipples are stuck and they bled at the pipe.

That's so true. Seeing this online too. The service advisor assured me, they can do it without..  I have a feeling she doesn't have a clue what she's talking about, although of course I didn't say or suggest that as that'd come across completely rude (and no doubt in this case be taken as irrational sexism). But based solely on her confirming she had seen the photos, and still insists.. leads me to believe she doesn't understand the procedure 😕 

3 hours ago, avensis_2018 said:

When you leave your car if its important to you, you must must must stay with it and see what they do and how they do things. Never leave it alone, if it needed take a day off and do so.

Also with the brake fluide ive been told you can refresh it from time to time and change the part thats under the hood just take off 300ml with a pipe and a niddle and add a new fresh dot4.

Take care.

I'm glad in your case, you were happy with that and had it explained to you.  But fine or not, I paid for a change and bleed. They didn't explain it, nor even now are they accepting that that's what they've done (at best).  Frankly, I could get away with not changing the fluid for years and the brakes will for the most part, work fine. I want to guarantee it by keeping up with the little jobs like this though, for what it's worth. 

2 hours ago, Tomv said:

I have experience with fluid change on my Fords and Skodas in dealerships and every time they just sucked out the fluid from the reservoi and topped it up. I asked them and was explained it’s ok. Did my own research (another garages, friends, google) and got resolution that is ok. So I expect that with my corolla it will be the same. And since I have never had any problems with this on my previous cars I think there is nothing to worry about.

I just check if the labour and amount of fluid I pay is equal to the 0,3L of fluid and 15min of time.

and if the car is not under warranty I change the fluid by myself. 

I'll be changing it myself from this point onward, same with the coolant too.  Again, most cars will be fine even if the fluid isn't changed 9/10 but I'm one of those weird people who just wants it done according to the book is all.  And when I pay that extra I expect what was promised to be done. 

2 hours ago, Stivino said:

It's not ok.  And if you are paying for the fluid to be changed, that's what you should get.  I would consider anything less as fraud.

100%

40 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

Shane, there you have it.  How do you bleed without disturbing bleed caps.  Get an independent opinion. 

The procedure also specifies items that will be disturbed.  Are there any witness marks  to show these have been disturbed?  Again an expert independent opinion might be obtained.

If you get positive opinions go in with a friendly smile.  You know you will win.  If they don't roll over keep your smile in place say see you in court.

Exactly, I'm going to ask the dealership next door to take a look, pay them an hours labour (probably not far off another £55.. but the principle). If they'll agree to do it and put the findings in writing. If all else fails I'd even get my solicitor involved again for the principle of not letting them get away with it. I've honestly nothing better to do lol 

23 minutes ago, yossarian247 said:

Replacing what's sat in the reservoir but leaving old fluid in the master cylinder, ABS pump and brake lines is a total waste of time. They frankly may as well not bother doing anything at all as do that. 

I've owned a couple of Skodas BTW and the dealers bled the brakes right through to the bleed nipples on all four calipers whenever they changed the fluid. I know because I checked them afterwards. That's the correct way of changing brake fluid, hybrid or not. Just changing what's in the reservoir is what slapdash mechanics do to make it look like they've changed the fluid when they can't be bothered to do the job properly. 

 

I agree with that. Total waste of time.  Last year when this dealer did it, they left the usual signs as well... I explained that to the service manager. Again with the "I trust my technician, if he said it's done, I have no reason to believe it wasn't done" - and she refuses to accept that the photos are evidence to the contrary .. circles. 

 

Hopefully the franchise people or Toyota UK can help. I'll also get in touch with my bank today / tomorrow to check what they will need to see for proof to do a chargeback in this case. I suspect they won't take 'my technician said so' as evidence on their end..

[SB1500]

Toyota UK have responded, they've made a case. 

I checked the rears.  Although there's signs of spanner marks from the past, there is the same dirt / grime over them and the caps are also completely untouched. I took videos for that. 

I'm thinking of posting it on YouTube - just the details of the situation and the photos / videos of the caps, with a bit of commentary as to what I believe happened and seeing if anybody in the general internet can comment, make a suggestion or share similar experiences tbh. 

Unless the dealership itself (under its own initiative and good will) can put it right very soon, I think from this point on I'll be investing around £100-£150 in the best / easiest bleeding kit I can and doing it for my car. 

From this point on, I'll also be going to the next Toyota dealer along in Coleraine for parts.  For twice a year servicing, it's not too bad having a 1 hour drive and making a day out of the North Coast. 

[Big_D]

9 hours ago, SB1500 said:

So far though, they're saying they checked with the technician who can confirm that it was done, was bled out through each wheel (and not just sucked out of the reservoir and replaced). Although I suspect, at best, that's what they did, reservoir job only.... 

My wife had the bonnet release catch broken on her old Smart car by the Dealer Technician while he was doing an MOT. Despite clear Dashcam footage showing him breaking the catch,which was shown to the  Workshop manager, the technician was adamant he didn't break it.

Sounds the same with the technician that changed your brake fluid. While this can be done without moving the wheels there will always be evidence to show that the bleed nipples have been opened.

[SB1500]

I really appreciate everybody's input and views here. There is an overwhelming case here that, no matter who or how you do it, there will always be, at least a little bit of smudge marks in the dirt.. or moisture from small drops of fluid..  Even at a dealership with the correct kit / access to the bleed nipples. 

Genuinely disappointed and a bit deflated over it to be honest. I honestly didn't think they'd try this kind of **** with me, always being down there buying parts for my servicing and chatting with the parts guy about things I'm doing on the car (as well as getting quotes and orders for parts). Genuinely never thought they'd try to do this to me, knowing fine rightly I have a decent knowledge of these things and knowing that I'd be verifying the work (as I've always done with all work on the car after). They've heard of issues I had in the past with the DS3 etc and we had a laugh over it. It's not like it should come as a surprise to them that I'm one of those customers. 

I know they'll always have their core of new car buyers in the warranty period, who've got those first 3 years of servicing to do. And the older folks who probably have the money sitting there, so for convenience will just indefinitely make use of the dealership. But they've lost a customer in me over this. I've a long list of genuine accessories yet to buy as well (window shades, boot liner, scuff plates) and had already bought things like the genuine mats from them this year. As well as every other year a map update (I know I can do it myself, but I'd have done it via them for the sake of giving them the business). As well as my twice a year oil, once a year other filters..  I'm aware that they'll get on just fine without me - even at that. It's just a **** one that that little loyalty I did have means nothing to them. I can't imagine they're scraping together the pennies either.

It's funny, on Friday I was chatting to two other customers in the waiting room too. An older woman and a farmer who both had new Toyotas getting the early services. They were giving off about the pricing etc, I chimed in but I did say to them "In fairness, they've always done the work promised here".. The man actually asked me what I was in for too, I told him, brake fluid change. He was sort of laughing to himself "Sure why would you need that changed?", told him, I'm one of those weird folks who just does what the book says. Told him it wasn't much more to have them do it, messy job.. time of year freezing. He smiled and say "if you think they're out there changing that brake fluid for you you're naive".. Turns out the guy was spot-on the money. After me defending the dealership too to them. 

I'm holding out hope Toyota UK will sort something out. In fairness they've never done me wrong so far. That's about the only thing I'm hopeful of with this. 

Genuinely getting fed up with cars. Doing all I can to keep it right, keep it serviced, putting in a little more money than strictly necessary, trying to keep pride in the thing. But it seems at every single turn there's a situation like this where there's a sub par job, or a blatant lie over what was done.  That's what I get for being lazy and paying them to do something I could have done myself. 

[Roy124]

Shane, there is a clue in what you said above.  You were with two others with new cars.

The garage may have been under pressure to do too many things with mechanics under pressure. 

I had a worse case than yours - no brake fluid at all, Friday night and taking a caravan to the west coast of Scotland (from Inverness).

In your case they might not have done anything at all and with poor supervision or not speaking with the mechanic the system simply charged you for work booked without checking it had been done.

[Tif]

18 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

Crack a bleed nipple and collect some then compare it to what is in the reservoir.

If you really want yo find if It has been done do It and if possible compare with a new bottle. If It hasn't been done the colour won't be the same.

 

[Mjolinor]

Does the Toyota schedule specify that a change includes a flush of the system?

Change to me includes the stuff in the pipes and I think most people on here seem to agree with that but personally I would not do that job for £55, too much work.

Does the schedule specify just a suck out and replace?

 

[yossarian247]

26 minutes ago, Mjolinor said:

Does the Toyota schedule specify that a change includes a flush of the system?

Change to me includes the stuff in the pipes and I think most people on here seem to agree with that but personally I would not do that job for £55, too much work.

Does the schedule specify just a suck out and replace?

 

Just sucking out what's in the reservoir isn't really changing the brake fluid in any meaningful way so I'd certainly hope that's not what the service schedule specifies. 

Imagine if you requested a coolant change and discovered that all they'd done was suck out and replace what was in the expansion tank! Doing that with the braking system is arguably worse as the brake lines are 'dead ends' with the same fluid moving backwards and forwards in the pipes, so there's no hope of new fluid simply poured into the reservoir ever reaching most of the components where it's actually needed. 

[Roy124]

4 hours ago, yossarian247 said:

Just sucking out what's in the reservoir isn't really changing the brake fluid in any meaningful way so I'd certainly hope that's not what the service schedule specifies. 

As mentioned up thread the procedure is to BLEED.   

[SB1500]

Toyota are on the case and have phot and video evidence of all four wheels. (They gave me an address to send the evidence to for my case). 
as are senior management at the franchise owner company. (They called today and assured me they are in it, also have the evidence) 
and I am still waiting for the service manager to get back to me with a full detail of the procedure used (apparently the technician was on a job today…). I asked her to go over the photos and videos with him and to let me know his explanation for it 

[SB1500]

here are the rears. Also untouched as you can see

[Big_D]

Keep us posted 👍

[SB1500]

On 11/30/2023 at 11:26 PM, Big_D said:

Keep us posted 👍

I will do. 

if all of these avenues fail I am seriously ready to trade it in to WBAC at a loss and give up on cars altogether. That’s where I’m at with this 🤣 electric bike and a bus pass. F*** it, these machines cannot me worth the hassle!!! 

so far I’ve faith between the franchise wanting to keep its name good and honest they’ll help.  Or that Toyota being the sort of company they are they will step in and help.  Or failing that, someone at the bank will at least investigate, and take onboard the photo evidence.. and issue a refund. 

seriously fed up with this. If you guys read my history with this car - it’s one problem after the other. Be it a body shop, insurance, windscreens.  

and look, I know I’m the common factor here. But 100% of the time I’m always an unassuming customer like anybody else, I’m never complaining even about the prices to them, all I expect is a decent job is done as agreed.  

and it seems like every. Single. Time. They’re either doing it with their eyes closed in a hurry… not doing it at all… or over charging. Absolutely disgusting. We’re taking a wider area sample here of; local mechanics, multiple franchise networks in NI and various different dealerships within them, tyre shops lying, the two large body shops, multiple windscreen companies, two insurance companies… how is it that they can all be absolutely useless. 

I’ll admit that only after long, stressful and uncertain ‘polite complaints’ - and sometimes having to be a bit firm with them - there have been most cases where they’ve ultimately made things right. And I appreciate that.  

But why every god damn time can’t it not just be easy? And as expected?   

This could be the last straw I have for the franchise, Toyota, and just car ownership in general.  I’m buying a house soon. And I could as well buy one in the city and go without a car. Pretty sure Enterprise have a car club.  

I’ll be going straight to Toyota, jack the car up outside their entrance, make my video, and then on the way back stop into enterprise and find out how the car club works. Then to WBAC 🤣 that is the stubborn, sleepless mindset I’ve got over this. 

perhaps in the morning I’ll be thinking a bit more… rationally. 

[Mushu84]

Unfortunately Shane

My Toyota UK experience so far is awful

First dealer I was gave me a lower offer them Mini gave me for my 2019 Mini with 13K miles that I left immediately just so I don't beat the hell out of that seller person, also the sellers attitude was condescending at all times like he was giving the car for free     

Second dealer was better, service at least, the offer for the Mini was the same as the BMW one, but from here is going wrong.

The first car I was offer was specified with panoramic roof and I order it (second hand), a week later they found out it was not with that option fitted. After a lot of negotiating I bought one without but at a better year, miles and price (very good discount £1600), again a car I did not see, after I went to take but it was raining like crazy, the next days I found out some things were not so ok, one corner of the car was repainted (nothing affected under the car, probably from parking) but some residue was left on the windscreen from respray, that I manage to clean in the end after 1 week of trying, the wheels were not balanced and the steering wheel alignment was not ok.

Took the car to a different dealer in Bishop Stratford just because I could not deal with the first dealer anymore and there they did my steering wheel alignment wrongly with the steering being crooked to the right, took them 3 visits and using PROTYRE shop in the end to do it correctly. 

3 visits and 3 months with 60 miles and 2 hours driving each visit and the cost was £100 (reduced to £50 after arguing with them A LOT) 

Toyota dealers here are the worst I've ever seen, strangely all I want is to pay and get the correct services for my car and for me not having to check everything like a maniac. It seems really hard to find a dealer like that and that is a shame

[SB1500]

On 12/1/2023 at 10:53 AM, Mushu84 said:

Unfortunately Shane

My Toyota UK experience so far is awful

 

First dealer I was gave me a lower offer them Mini gave me for my 2019 Mini with 13K miles that I left immediately just so I don't beat the hell out of that seller person, also the sellers attitude was condescending at all times like he was giving the car for free     

Second dealer was better, service at least, the offer for the Mini was the same as the BMW one, but from here is going wrong.

The first car I was offer was specified with panoramic roof and I order it (second hand), a week later they found out it was not with that option fitted. After a lot of negotiating I bought one without but at a better year, miles and price (very good discount £1600), again a car I did not see, after I went to take but it was raining like crazy, the next days I found out some things were not so ok, one corner of the car was repainted (nothing affected under the car, probably from parking) but some residue was left on the windscreen from respray, that I manage to clean in the end after 1 week of trying, the wheels were not balanced and the steering wheel alignment was not ok.

Took the car to a different dealer in Bishop Stratford just because I could not deal with the first dealer anymore and there they did my steering wheel alignment wrongly with the steering being crooked to the right, took them 3 visits and using PROTYRE shop in the end to do it correctly. 

3 visits and 3 months with 60 miles and 2 hours driving each visit and the cost was £100 (reduced to £50 after arguing with them A LOT) 

Toyota dealers here are the worst I've ever seen, strangely all I want is to pay and get the correct services for my car and for me not having to check everything like a maniac. It seems really hard to find a dealer like that and that is a shame

Hi Mike. That’s awful. But it’s not too much worse than the typical experience. Low balled. Talked down to. 

until now I’ve not had anything too bad from my dealer. The franchise is hit or miss. And inside the dealership it’s just down to who you deal with I guess. 

Not just Toyota. But they’re all the same. I’ve found also that a lot of the sales guys and mechanics tend to move about a lot. So they don’t know much about a brand, much about its products or brand ethos. All very pushy on the sales. And the mechanics here tend to do their own work on the side and bring that reckless attitude and corner cutting into the dealerships with them. Sad state of how things are these days I suppose, people moving around and not caring for the details at all. 

All morning I’ve been looking into the Enterprise Car Club.  I’m seriously done with all this hassle. I love my car. But at every turn it’s stress and expense. I’m happy with the expense and the effort but it rarely results in the peace of mind or quality work that I think is reasonable when you’re paying top dollar for it versus cheaping out on parts or going to the lowest cost independent… 

I’ve only got an 8 mile commute. 2-3 days a week.  Don’t need to leave the city most weekends. When I do there’s a car club / alternatives. 

car ownership to me is nearly dead and frankly the motor trade in it’s state (at least in my locale) deserves every customer it loses.

[Cyker]

The trick is finding a mechanic you can trust; I must admit I'm still borderline with my dealer - They do the service stuff fine, and have actually been changing all the filters, much to my surprise, but even when they do a good job there, they often do something to ruin it, like in the last service when I found the contents of my glovebox all over the passenger footwell (They'd obviously gone to remove it to change the filter and accidentally tipped everything out, but instead of putting it back in or telling me with an apology they just left me to find it like that!)

I've also learned not to give them anything outside servicing, as they just consistently mess it up in some way. I'm lucky as I know a travelling mechanic who I *can* trust with most other mechanical stuff, but before I found him via a mutual acquaintance I'd been through many garages and mechanics with stuff and always been disappointed with the work., so I can sympathize with the frustration!

[SB1500]

The dealer wants to see it first thing on Monday. I’m hesitant to let them near it to be honest. They opened with ‘we have a testing machine that can test the fluid’ to which I said, I don’t doubt that they did the half job of sucking out the reservoir and replacing it.. restated that my issue is at the wheels.  

They said they’d like to see it in person 

[Cyker]

Can you insist that you present when they take the samples? Then you can make them take it from the bleed nipples and not just from the reservoir.

Actually do you know anyone who does has gear for that? The kicker would be if the fluid drawn from the bleed nipple is darker than the fluid in the reservoir; That would show it hasn't been bled properly, as it should all be roughly the same colour.

 

[Roy124]

Not changed my brake fluid for a number of years but I got a Paddy Hopkirk kit and was surprised how easy it was.  Why a garage would skimp on such a vital task I don't know. 

If by chance your car was involved in an accident the accident investigation team would be all over it like a rash.

The garage would be in a world of hurt if the brakes had not been serviced properly. 

[Roy124]

Shane,  can you take a friend with you?  A second person can act as a distractor.   While they can try and flannel you a second person can put them off as they try to see if both of you swallow their story.

Of course if they don't BS you and fess up, no problem. 

[Shared]

My approach would be to ask them whether they agree that in order to flush the fluid completely the system must be bled from each individual cylinder, at each individual wheel, If that can be established the next question would be "How have you done that without leaving witness marks/disturbing the bleed points".

I would also ask that if they are going to check the fluid they drain some into a container from one of the rear wheel cylinders, whilst you observe, depending on my mood I'd also challenge them to do it without disturbing the dust & rust.

Brake testing gizmo's are relatively cheap but of course most people would check from the fluid reservoir, which in your case would probably show fluid that is clearer but also less water contaminated than might be the case at the rear cylinders.

Good luck anyway, like most other I don't think those bleed nipples have been undone recently, in fact if I were you I'd be draining a little fluid myself & checking before returning to the dealer.