Dealership Scammed me on Brake Fluid Change

[SB1500]

Hi folks, hoping I'm wrong (and missing something) here.  But I had the Avensis booked in last week for a brake fluid change / replacement.  Only got around to backing up the Dashcam files. Had a look... looks like they stood and potentially topped it up (not that it needed topping up). But amongst some missing footage at times, I didn't see the car being lifted up or any footage from it shaking about on the lift or whilst they did the work. Now, I'm aware, maybe in the gaps, they did the work and I just don't have footage. I get that. 

Took the car to the garage, removed the two front wheels. 1. The alloys were baked on and took a beating to get off... 2. BOTH bleed valves, are perfectly covered in the same fine layer of grime as the rest of the brake / callipers... a spider web on one.  These do not look touched at all. 

It's my understanding that to REPLACE the brake fluid, you need a FLUSH. Pushing as much as possible through all four of the lines to each wheel, until it runs clear with new fluid...  I understand that during a service.. they may inspect and top up (not replace). But I specifically took it to the dealer, to be replaced. Not topped up. That means replaced and bled at each wheel. 

I am reading online of stories of sucking out the fluid from the reservoir ... as a shortcut. In my opinion.. this can not physically get the old fluid out of each sealed valve on each wheel (how could it?). I don't even have any proof that they did this. Mostly from BMW forums. A couple of online sources citing (including that Car Car Nut guy) how dealerships do it, and they all involve a pressure bleeder, then going around each wheel to bleed / run through the new fluid, and get out the old.

Am I missing something? How else can I be sure?

I am severely disappointed in the dealership. Not only did they attempt to over charge me, before I enquired with Toyotas as to why its app had a cheaper price, but if I am correct, they wasted an hour and a half of my time - on an annual leave day, cut short so I could make it to them by 4pm - and charged me for it. 

I am not happy. 

 

[Stivino]

Take it back to them and air your concerns.

[SB1500]

9 minutes ago, Stivino said:

Take it back to them and air your concerns.

Planning to give them a ring tomorrow.  Just waiting to see if folks on here can tell me if I've missed anything, I'd like to be 100% before I go down and express my frustration with it.

reading a few older threads, seems like at best, they've maybe sucked out from the reservoir, then refilled with new stuff... If they admit this, and don't play ball, it'll be chargeback from the bank..  

They should have known better than to scam a customer that they know already does all of the other work on their car using the genuine parts. Expected better from a Toyota dealer above all 😞

[Stivino]

11 minutes ago, SB1500 said:

they've maybe sucked out from the reservoir, then refilled with new stuff

If they have done that, it's not a change of brake fluid.

[SB1500]

19 minutes ago, Stivino said:

If they have done that, it's not a change of brake fluid.

True. Other than the caps having not been touched, and the wheels still stuck solid on to the car, trying to think of other ways to verify that it has in fact not been done as invoiced / requested. I booked it over email too so the wording is quite clear 

[Big_D]

Des the invoice show that brake fluid was changed/replaced, or topped up? This is probably what they would look at. Also, ask to see the job card which the technician used. They may have made notes as to what was done.

[Avensis tourer]

What is on your invoice? How much did they charge you? 

[SB1500]

28 minutes ago, Big_D said:

Des the invoice show that brake fluid was changed/replaced, or topped up? This is probably what they would look at. Also, ask to see the job card which the technician used. They may have made notes as to what was done.

Brake fluid change, plus the code for the genuine Toyota brake fluid quantity and all listed. 

4 minutes ago, Avensis tourer said:

What is on your invoice? How much did they charge you? 

Brake fluid change. They tried to charge me initially £80. But having seen £55 on the Toyota app, when I enquired about the difference the immediately agreed to honour £55. 
 

just checked the app again; it’s pretty clear. They’ve updated my cars service history to say it’s been changed as well…. I hope they have a good answer.  
 

From what dash cam footage I have, it seems like they’ve topped it up. As the car doesn’t appear to be lifted up at all, which it would obviously need to be to have each wheel removed to bleed the system. No sign of any kit either. Just one black bottle of the genuine fluid. And a rag.  As he exits off the ramp of the car lift, he’s braking a few times and asking his colleague if he had engaged / disengaged the park brake. 

[Stivino]

They wouldn't need to remove the wheels, they could easily get to the nipples with the car in the air.

[Avensis tourer]

I only replace parts. I am not an expert in mechanics, but correct me if I'm mistaken. I am unaware of any method to change the brake fluid without unscrewing the bleeding nipples. It appears that your "nipples" have not been touched. 

[mrfixer]

Its possible to open the bleeders without removing the wheels - if the car is up on the ramps. Doesn't look like yours have been done though.  Can use a pressure bleeder on the reservoir or a vacuum bleeder on the bleed nipples.

If have a bit of a background in the motor trade and this sort of thing does go on, unfortunately.  

[SB1500]

13 hours ago, Stivino said:

They wouldn't need to remove the wheels, they could easily get to the nipples with the car in the air.

This morning, that's what they are saying. I can see that might be an option.. however, bleed valves would be touched - maybe even more so getting access to them with the wheel on. 

12 hours ago, Avensis tourer said:

I only replace parts. I am not an expert in mechanics, but correct me if I'm mistaken. I am unaware of any method to change the brake fluid without unscrewing the bleeding nipples. It appears that your "nipples" have not been touched. 

Definitely. The photos seem proof enough to me. They are insisting it was done without removing the wheels. 

12 hours ago, mrfixer said:

Its possible to open the bleeders without removing the wheels - if the car is up on the ramps. Doesn't look like yours have been done though.  Can use a pressure bleeder on the reservoir or a vacuum bleeder on the bleed nipples.

If have a bit of a background in the motor trade and this sort of thing does go on, unfortunately.  

That's what they're saying. So fair enough on the wheels side. But the bleeder nipple valve, that not being touched, they don't seem to have an answer for so far. 

I think I'll go up and inspect the rear wheels - didn't look last night as I concluded the front two were proof enough.  I'll get photos of the rear two valves. 

So far though, they're saying they checked with the technician who can confirm that it was done, was bled out through each wheel (and not just sucked out of the reservoir and replaced). Although I suspect, at best, that's what they did, reservoir job only.... 

I'll give them today - I'm quite busy at work but will ring them back later or first thing tomorrow (they're at lunch same time as me). But if they don't come clean or prove me wrong, then I'll have to get Toyota involved. Again.. 

[Mjolinor]

Crack a bleed nipple and collect some then compare it to what is in the reservoir.

[Mushu84]

Hi Shane,

 

Sorry to hear about your situation I would fell frustrated at least 

That is the problem here in UK people assume that they are done without checking and happily pay the premium, I just marked my air filters and cabin filter to check them as I don't trust them, I had my fare share of disappointment form the dealers 

 

Buying the car - check everything about the car don't listen to the seller 

Owning the car - check if they do all the service as payed for, don't trust them 

 

This is the world we are living in unfortunately full of unqualified personal that they pay with penny's and expect them to be correct 

[Roy124]

You ringed the Toyota brake fluid price.  The key item is immediately below:

Done on accordance with Toyota procedures. 

Having seen a procedure for something else,  it covers every thing step by step.  If that procedure mentions the nipples or removal of the wheels then it is clear they did not follow the procedure. 

Can anyone give sight of the procedure?

[Parts-King]

I have seen brake fluid being changed on two poster ramps without the wheels being taken off, however, it is not usually done on it's own, it's normally done in conjunction with a full service where the wheels do come off. On a two poster ramp it can be done 

[Avensis tourer]

I don't visit garages often, but when I do, it's usually for changing or repairing tires, getting a tracking or an MOT done. I don't have much experience with garages, but when it comes to their honesty, I'm skeptical. I have one car that I purchased 4 months old, and I decided not to keep the guarantee and look after it myself. The manufacturer suggested an oil interval of 12500 miles, but I change it every 6000-7000 miles. Living in the countryside has been tough on my alloy wheels and low profile tires.

One time, I went to have to get my tracking done, and on collection, I was told that my alloy was distorted and that I needed a new tire and wheel repair or replacement. I asked how that was possible and why he decided to set the tracking, but he couldn't explain. Nobody seemed to care, but I got a refund. I can't believe in anything these days. £55 for a brake fluid change seems incredibly cheap, and I suspect they were hoping for extra work. I would expect them to look at the brakes first to make sure that the discs and pads are in good condition, but this would require taking the wheels off, which would also be time-consuming.

They usually have CCTV installed. I feel like it's personal now, and I would pursue it.

[SB1500]

2 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

Crack a bleed nipple and collect some then compare it to what is in the reservoir.

I'll have a couple of independent / other local mechanics look at this first. I'll ask them "when do you think this was last done?" and when they. Just an initial look first before booking it in. Ask them to email it to me and tell them I'll think about booking it in. Then go back to Toyota / the dealer if need be.  All useful as well in the case they turn me away, in which case I'll go to the bank with my proof of no service paid for, and get a chargeback issued. Hopefully it won't come to that. 

2 hours ago, Mushu84 said:

Hi Shane,

Sorry to hear about your situation I would fell frustrated at least 

That is the problem here in UK people assume that they are done without checking and happily pay the premium, I just marked my air filters and cabin filter to check them as I don't trust them, I had my fare share of disappointment form the dealers 

Buying the car - check everything about the car don't listen to the seller 

Owning the car - check if they do all the service as payed for, don't trust them 

This is the world we are living in unfortunately full of unqualified personal that they pay with penny's and expect them to be correct 

That's so true. I think they're getting away with this in most cases so they don't think twice. Maybe it's an unwritten franchise policy to save money or time.. well, not on my time or expense.  Makes me wonder, when we're buying cars with 'full dealer service history' - does it even mean anything anymore?  When buying, we're paying a premium, as did the previous owner(s) for a full service history, yet the cars aren't receiving it. 

With a brake fluid change too, sure enough, my car won't be dangerous or anything like that. However, I'm following the maintenance schedule to the letter! I'm putting in a lot of work most people would overlook / or skip. With the intention of someday feeling the benefit - such as when the car is 10+ years old, and I'll expect the callipers to not stick, or the system to have suffered from old bad fluid etc. All those little tiny differences which contribute the difference between a 'fair condition' older car, and an 'excellent condition' new car. 

At the end of the day, I bought this Toyota with the understanding that.. if I want it to last like a Toyota, I need to look after it like a Toyota. To me, that means forking over extra money for Toyota parts, and Toyota fluids. And to change both at Toyota intervals.  I highly doubt most folks do this and their cars are just fine lasting 10-15 years maybe more.  But those guys who racked up 1,000,000 miles ... or hundreds of thousands (not that I'll ever have the need for that) what did they do? They followed the maintenance schedule to the letter. That's all. And in most cases, used genuine parts too.  That's why I do it. That's why, just under 25k since the last fluid change, I'm doing it again. Due to the maintenance schedule, and Toyota's prescription to use at least their quality parts or above. 

What part of this technicians mind thought that I was some idiot for doing this, and that I wouldn't be double checking his work, made a big mistake. I'm down there all the time for parts, twice a year, and buying all sorts of useless accessories from them. Trying to support my local dealer, even ordering niche minor parts that wore out or I damaged, like door handle trim pieces etc. Because I don't want the dealership to close like many, many others on this site have owned by the same franchise network... and they take me for an idiot. And waste 1.5 hours of my time, on a day off work.  Frustrated for sure! 

2 hours ago, Roy124 said:

You ringed the Toyota brake fluid price.  The key item is immediately below:

Done on accordance with Toyota procedures. 

Having seen a procedure for something else,  it covers every thing step by step.  If that procedure mentions the nipples or removal of the wheels then it is clear they did not follow the procedure. 

Can anyone give sight of the procedure?

Toyota's app (and the invoice given by the dealer) states replacement / bleed. Invoice states a volume of fluid I've paid for which reflects a replacement (not just a top up or reservoir drain / refill). 

I have the procedure here (attached). Note, at the top, it tells the technician to bleed the system when ANY work is done on the brake system. So in this case, if they are following Toyota's guidance (which a Toyota franchised dealership has NO GROUNDS to decide to not follow) they should have done this. 

59 minutes ago, Parts-King said:

I have seen brake fluid being changed on two poster ramps without the wheels being taken off, however, it is not usually done on it's own, it's normally done in conjunction with a full service where the wheels do come off. On a two poster ramp it can be done 

I accept that it can be done without taking the wheels off, especially with their state of the art workshop and tools and lifts. Frankly, I could understand (but still am against!) a regular mechanic taking a shortcut and lying to save personal time / money / materials, but with these guys having all the time in the world, steady salaries and benefits of working for a company, backed by a manufacturer, it's twice as annoying. 

 

 

Waiting for the service manager to call me back.. since 2.  I'll give them a ring now just to see the story..

Brake Fluid Replacement Avensis.pdf

[Avensis tourer]

[SB1500]

4 minutes ago, Avensis tourer said:

I don't visit garages often, but when I do, it's usually for changing or repairing tires, getting a tracking or an MOT done. I don't have much experience with garages, but when it comes to their honesty, I'm skeptical. I have one car that I purchased 4 months old, and I decided not to keep the guarantee and look after it myself. The manufacturer suggested an oil interval of 12500 miles, but I change it every 6000-7000 miles. Living in the countryside has been tough on my alloy wheels and low profile tires.

Same here, I do mine every 6-7k miles - not the 12500. And I use the Toyota oil (which I buy regularly from this very dealership). Same, tyres, bodywork - things I can't do myself. And warranty (But that ran out this September). I did this because, had I done it myself, I'd have ordered the genuine bottles of Toyota brake fluid from the dealer anyway at nearly £30, easy to just pay the £55 and let them do it basically. Not next time, that's for sure. 

4 minutes ago, Avensis tourer said:

One time, I went to have to get my tracking done, and on collection, I was told that my alloy was distorted and that I needed a new tire and wheel repair or replacement. I asked how that was possible and why he decided to set the tracking, but he couldn't explain. Nobody seemed to care, but I got a refund. I can't believe in anything these days. £55 for a brake fluid change seems incredibly cheap, and I suspect they were hoping for extra work. I would expect them to look at the brakes first to make sure that the discs and pads are in good condition, but this would require taking the wheels off, which would also be time-consuming.

Funnily enough, I got an email from them (I used to think these were automated) saying I'm due a service with them. But I never get it serviced by them, I do that myself. They should know that.. but the timing suggests to me, they've sent it following my visit on Friday.  They wish...  £55 is cheap, but that's what the Toyota app quotes for this dealership. I'd be curious the price for any of you folks in England / Scotland to see what price the app shows you at your local dealership..  regional differences apply. but normally NI is the cheapest in the UK.

4 minutes ago, Avensis tourer said:

They usually have CCTV installed. I feel like it's personal now, and I would pursue it.

I'll be asking them for this if they insist in calling me a liar. If they tell me it wasn't working then I'll find out who their insurer is, and contact them to inform them that their CCTV isn't working and that they should consider into it.. 

[Mjolinor]

Wheels on or off you cannot do it without leaving a stain on the end of the nipple or in the little rubber cap unless the nipples are stuck and they bled at the pipe.

[avensis_2018]

When you leave your car if its important to you, you must must must stay with it and see what they do and how they do things. Never leave it alone, if it needed take a day off and do so.

Also with the brake fluide ive been told you can refresh it from time to time and change the part thats under the hood just take off 300ml with a pipe and a niddle and add a new fresh dot4.

Take care.

[Stivino]

32 minutes ago, Mjolinor said:

and they bled at the pipe.

And you get an even bigger mess.

[Tomv]

I have experience with fluid change on my Fords and Skodas in dealerships and every time they just sucked out the fluid from the reservoi and topped it up. I asked them and was explained it’s ok. Did my own research (another garages, friends, google) and got resolution that is ok. So I expect that with my corolla it will be the same. And since I have never had any problems with this on my previous cars I think there is nothing to worry about.

I just check if the labour and amount of fluid I pay is equal to the 0,3L of fluid and 15min of time.

and if the car is not under warranty I change the fluid by myself. 

[Stivino]

It's not ok.  And if you are paying for the fluid to be changed, that's what you should get.  I would consider anything less as fraud.