Crunch time: I need to order a new company car!

[Nick72]

I've been looking at a lot of forums for all the alternatives. Speaking with friends with Teslas, Polestar 2, Volvo EV and PHEV etc.

I'm not enamoured by the reliability troubles and lists of issues they all have. Tesla look like they have a reasonable real world range and the new version of the Model Y combined with Teslas charging network is a possibility or would be if it wasn't such an ugly car.

I think my needs can't be met by an EV for a couple of years although there are some possibilities towards the end of next year and 2025 which could hit the spot. Bit, they will fall outside of my ordering window. 

Looks like the GR Sport really is the only option. Be nice if they'd put a better Battery in and a 120hp motor in the rear!

But I definitely want a sun roof on the GR Sport.

[Cyker]

If you really want an EV, you either need to be able to charge at home and find one with enough range to get you to your destination and back, or get a Tesla.

As much as I dislike Tesla, they're the only ones who did it right, by realizing a car is useless without 'fuel', and really invested in infrastructure, whereas everyone else seems to be just throwing cars out and hoping someone else deals with the problem.

That said, with Tesla allegedly opening up their infrastructure to other cars in the future, it might make it more viable for everyone, but their chargers will be purely app+account dependent unless the government forces them to have contactless payment like they're supposed to be doing, but methinks they will get an exception for some time, like Apple managed to for years with their charging standards. And this is assuming there isn't weird compatibility issues with other cars (It still frustrates me that the general pettiness between the various OEMs of the EV world have some how smegged up basic electrical connections despite us having mastered it for over a century!)

 

[ernieb]

I've read that Tesla drivers are up in arms about the opening up of the Tesla charging system. Many cars have the charging ports positioned differently to the Tesla and end up blocking not just one but two chargers.

From my prospective the charging infrastructure is still way from comfortable and unless you can charge from home and this would cover a significant part of your needs the EV cars are still in the future. I really don't see there being any viable alternatives in the next 2-3 years.

[Yugguy1970]

Teslas are eye-wateringly hideous.  Get a polestar. 😁

[Flatcoat]

Personally I will not be going near a BEV and certainly not anything made in China. I can understand the incentive from a tax aspect but that is irrelevant to me and most of the car owning population. However the very fact this headlong rush to EV’s is through political dictat is in itself reason to be very, very cautious. How often do politicians back the correct tech? It is interesting to note that in Japan, the land oft associated with high tech automotive development, the take up if BEV’s is minuscule……. And Stellantis are again cautioning politicians about enforced introduction of unaffordable technology. 
Back to the conundrum of which car to go for. I would hang on a little while longer to see what else is coming to the market in the coming months. Another thought is does the budget stretch to a Lexus PHEV or, can you manage with the CHR PHEV for size? 

[Mike2222]

14 hours ago, Nick72 said:

I think my needs can't be met by an EV for a couple of years although there are some possibilities towards the end of next year and 2025 which could hit the spot.

Sorry to labour the point, but you either need to change your driving-lifestyle expectations, or just stick with the damn PHEV. [I'm not genuinely grumpy/angry, just perplexed as you otherwise seem to be relatively sane on this forum] 

 

I own a BEV. I am neither a naysayer, nor a green beserker/EVangelist. But you are wildly underestimating all the variables that impact real world range on a long journey, and thus what would be required of a Battery (and the vehicle packaging eg drive train, drag coefficient, size - cos the tardis ain't real). 

 

If, for the sake of argument, we say that your stated *minimum* requirements of a BEV are immutable - 320+miles real world range at motorway speeds (for sake of argument I'm assuming you live within minutes of a 70+mph road, no hypermiling, accepting that in the real world unless you're tailgating a HGV this is going to require energy wastage in the form of intermittent acceleration & decelerations), in winter temps, in wet/slushy road conditions, SUV shape or similar load carrying capacity (you appear to have also ignored the impact of payload weight on BEV efficiency/range and how all promotional & research materials will be basing range estimations on an empty vehicle and a 70kg driver), for £50k-ish or less (new), and until these are met then you will not consider owning one, then.... You are never owning one. Or, at least not as your household's primary vehicle. 

 

Even if, for sake of argument, your statement about energy density tripling in a decade is accurate, and this comes to pass, this will put lithium ion tech maybe 900wh/kg, in TEN Years (!!) and that's before we go anywhere near what the cost of that tech will be when brand new. For context, diesel is >12500wh/kg, and at 40% thermal efficiency that's 5100 (petrol for a similar calc is ~4400). This allows such a remarkable headroom for ICE to be massively wasteful, yet still achieve the ranges you're asking for, without an especially enormous fuel tank. (obviously choosing to ignore the various problems of emissions/climate change etc for sake of what is already a v long post). 

 

Battery tech advances are not the key to making the BEV a everyman proposition within the next 10-20yrs, infrastructure is, so as to allow reasonable range and easy charging. If no one willingly (or by coercion, 😉 @Flatcoat) accepts the need to recharge on journeys, then their will never be the business case to make realistically-widespread rapid charging installation commercially viable, and in the UK at least, there is no political will to push this as a national infrastructure policy (I'm not necessarily suggesting they should, because there are absurdly massive public service needs already which are going ignored across the spectrum). 

[Mike2222]

4 hours ago, Flatcoat said:

certainly not anything made in China

If you posted this on a phone or laptop.... then I've got some news for you, and you may need to sit down.... 

[Flatcoat]

29 minutes ago, Mike2222 said:

If you posted this on a phone or laptop.... then I've got some news for you, and you may need to sit down.... 

I know - and you don’t need to be clever about it. But most manufacturers are deserting China like the plague. 

[Nick72]

16 hours ago, Cyker said:

If you really want an EV, you either need to be able to charge at home and find one with enough range to get you to your destination and back, or get a Tesla.

As much as I dislike Tesla, they're the only ones who did it right, by realizing a car is useless without 'fuel', and really invested in infrastructure, whereas everyone else seems to be just throwing cars out and hoping someone else deals with the problem.

That said, with Tesla allegedly opening up their infrastructure to other cars in the future, it might make it more viable for everyone, but their chargers will be purely app+account dependent unless the government forces them to have contactless payment like they're supposed to be doing, but methinks they will get an exception for some time, like Apple managed to for years with their charging standards. And this is assuming there isn't weird compatibility issues with other cars (It still frustrates me that the general pettiness between the various OEMs of the EV world have some how smegged up basic electrical connections despite us having mastered it for over a century!)

 

Completely agree Cyker. It's what I've been trying to articulate albeit not very well. There's no tesla that meets my needs apart from possibly the model Y but it looks like a preggers guppy so I just can't do it. However it's still a little less real range than I need even with the great infrastructure tesla has. My neighbour raves about it and he's all over the country on business.  

[Nick72]

7 hours ago, ernieb said:

I've read that Tesla drivers are up in arms about the opening up of the Tesla charging system. Many cars have the charging ports positioned differently to the Tesla and end up blocking not just one but two chargers.

From my prospective the charging infrastructure is still way from comfortable and unless you can charge from home and this would cover a significant part of your needs the EV cars are still in the future. I really don't see there being any viable alternatives in the next 2-3 years.

Completely agreed Ernie. People have a Tesla partly because their infrastructure offsets the range anxiety. And the whole EV business only really works if you've got a home charger. Otherwise it is going yo be painful.  Not impossible but a major hassle.

[Nick72]

6 hours ago, Yugguy1970 said:

Teslas are eye-wateringly hideous.  Get a polestar. 😁

I love the look and performance of the Polestar 2 and others coming soon but I've been on their forums and it doesn't seem to be a happy place. Weird random software errors, reliability, very hard ride quality, etc.

[Nick72]

5 hours ago, Flatcoat said:

Personally I will not be going near a BEV and certainly not anything made in China. I can understand the incentive from a tax aspect but that is irrelevant to me and most of the car owning population. However the very fact this headlong rush to EV’s is through political dictat is in itself reason to be very, very cautious. How often do politicians back the correct tech? It is interesting to note that in Japan, the land oft associated with high tech automotive development, the take up if BEV’s is minuscule……. And Stellantis are again cautioning politicians about enforced introduction of unaffordable technology. 
Back to the conundrum of which car to go for. I would hang on a little while longer to see what else is coming to the market in the coming months. Another thought is does the budget stretch to a Lexus PHEV or, can you manage with the CHR PHEV for size? 

I've got sone sympathy with this view Flatcoat. Although I think in the long term it is the best bet. The affordability issue seems to the next evolution along with increased range. Take the EX30 compact SUV from Volvo. 33k and a good electric range. Mass produced in China of course. Toyota are following suit in 2025 with similar and usingvtheir new solid state Battery tech. Kia also with the EV5 and EV9. So it's all happening.  Toyota has timed their move very well I think. Focus on hybrids and PHEVs for which they have decades of experience at, wait until Battery tech is good enough to tackle a large slice of market and user needs, and start to build market share. Noting Toyota has stopped their hydrogen pursuit.

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, Mike2222 said:

Sorry to labour the point, but you either need to change your driving-lifestyle expectations, or just stick with the damn PHEV. [I'm not genuinely grumpy/angry, just perplexed as you otherwise seem to be relatively sane on this forum] 

 

I own a BEV. I am neither a naysayer, nor a green beserker/EVangelist. But you are wildly underestimating all the variables that impact real world range on a long journey, and thus what would be required of a battery (and the vehicle packaging eg drive train, drag coefficient, size - cos the tardis ain't real). 

 

If, for the sake of argument, we say that your stated *minimum* requirements of a BEV are immutable - 320+miles real world range at motorway speeds (for sake of argument I'm assuming you live within minutes of a 70+mph road, no hypermiling, accepting that in the real world unless you're tailgating a HGV this is going to require energy wastage in the form of intermittent acceleration & decelerations), in winter temps, in wet/slushy road conditions, SUV shape or similar load carrying capacity (you appear to have also ignored the impact of payload weight on BEV efficiency/range and how all promotional & research materials will be basing range estimations on an empty vehicle and a 70kg driver), for £50k-ish or less (new), and until these are met then you will not consider owning one, then.... You are never owning one. Or, at least not as your household's primary vehicle. 

 

Even if, for sake of argument, your statement about energy density tripling in a decade is accurate, and this comes to pass, this will put lithium ion tech maybe 900wh/kg, in TEN Years (!!) and that's before we go anywhere near what the cost of that tech will be when brand new. For context, diesel is >12500wh/kg, and at 40% thermal efficiency that's 5100 (petrol for a similar calc is ~4400). This allows such a remarkable headroom for ICE to be massively wasteful, yet still achieve the ranges you're asking for, without an especially enormous fuel tank. (obviously choosing to ignore the various problems of emissions/climate change etc for sake of what is already a v long post). 

 

Battery tech advances are not the key to making the BEV a everyman proposition within the next 10-20yrs, infrastructure is, so as to allow reasonable range and easy charging. If no one willingly (or by coercion, 😉 @Flatcoat) accepts the need to recharge on journeys, then their will never be the business case to make realistically-widespread rapid charging installation commercially viable, and in the UK at least, there is no political will to push this as a national infrastructure policy (I'm not necessarily suggesting they should, because there are absurdly massive public service needs already which are going ignored across the spectrum). 

So I think you've simply reiterated my concerns about real world range performance.  We can go down the full engineering analysis route if you want since I have 6 graduate and postgraduate qualifications in engjneering, physics, and more here but it is really pointless. A factor of 0.6 to 0.7 for the claimed range is probably ball park for a majority 70mph cruise at 0 to 10C OSAT. And as I stated if there's an EV that can get close to my round trip real range then it becomes an option. And the facts are we are getting pretty close and will be there in a few years. Checkout Volvo EX30, Kia EV5 or EV9 on the cost and range front. 33k starting price for the former. Then there's the BMW IX series putting aside cost noting their new dual chemistry system which is coming very soon.

I didn't put a price limit on the vehicle so I'm not sure where you got this from. I'm happy to go to 90k for the right vehicle although I'd prefer if it were much lower. So price is not a hard limit. 

What I wanted to do with the post was to understand options and what folks think about the BEV options vs the R4P PHEV GR Sport. I'm already driving the R4P PHEV for the last 2.3 years. It works for me but if there's something better (performance,  luxury, ticks the BiK box, etc.) or something that's planned for release mid next year then I ought to consider it? Making an informed choice.

Could I ask what BEV do you drive, why, and why are you on the R4P forum? And so angry?

 

[philip42h]

6 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

Take the EX30 compact SUV from Volvo.

You know, I just might! 🙂

My requirements are rather different of course. I'm retired, not working, and it would be a private purchase, so BIK is utterly irrelevant. And, within reason, I can adapt my driving needs to the capabilities of the car rather that the other way around. Other than that, it must be AWD - and the EX30 can be - and doesn't need to be as big as a RAV4. So, subject to seeing one in the metal and taking it for a test drive it's a definite candidate (for me).

But then, if I hang on a little longer, I could compare that with the bZ2X - which is what I think the Toyota equivalent will be called.    🤔

I think the EV technology is there or there abouts - of course it will be better in five years time. And I suspect that the charging infrastructure is approaching 'fit for purpose' - provided that you can charge at home. Folk seem to be able to manage regular journeys quite well because they know where the charging stations are - just as I do the petrol stations that I use with any regularity. It's just that out of the ordinary journeys are a little more exciting ... but that will improve.

Meanwhile, Nick just needs to order a replacement RAV4 PHEV to 'hire' for the next three years and review the marketplace again then ... 😉

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, Flatcoat said:

I know - and you don’t need to be clever about it. But most manufacturers are deserting China like the plague. 

Sympathise here Flatcoat. If I could avoid Chinese production then great butvit seems easier said than done these days. Chinese electronics, steel, manufacturing, raw rare earths,  etc. Seems like a long list.

[Nick72]

2 minutes ago, philip42h said:

You know, I just might! 🙂

My requirements are rather different of course. I'm retired, not working, and it would be a private purchase, so BIK is utterly irrelevant. And, within reason, I can adapt my driving needs to the capabilities of the car rather that the other way around. Other than that, it must be AWD - and the EX30 can be - and doesn't need to be as big as a RAV4. So, subject to seeing one in the metal and taking it for a test drive it's a definite candidate (for me).

But then, if I hang on a little longer, I could compare that with the bZ2X - which is what I think the Toyota equivalent will be called.    🤔

I think the EV technology is there or there abouts - of course it will be better in five years time. And I suspect that the charging infrastructure is approaching 'fit for purpose' - provided that you can charge at home. Folk seem to be able to manage regular journeys quite well because they know where the charging stations are - just as I do the petrol stations that I use with any regularity. It's just that out of the ordinary journeys are a little more exciting ... but that will improve.

Meanwhile, Nick just needs to order a replacement RAV4 PHEV to 'hire' for the next three years and review the marketplace again then ... 😉

That's the conclusion I've come to in this thread Phillip so thank you amd thanks everyone for all the opinions. Some I agree with and some I just don't . 

If the EX30 dual motor just had another 80 or 90 real world miles I would definitely have it as one of the top options. Looks cool, loads of Innovation.  Affordable and hypercar killing performance. Starting at 33k. I'd need to bite my tongue on the Chinese production front largely because I think we've all become too dependent on China. 

So I spoke with the company car folks who were just going to check with the dealer on the paint options and sunroof (pan roof) versus their badly engineered website and option selection. 

I'm going to go for red (scarlet flare) bi_tone with the black given the black wheels. 

I was tempted by pearl white (storm trooper style) and by the black but I haven't seen the latter anywhere on the R4P GR Sport.

Only problem with red cars from my experience of ownership is it seems there's a psychological trigger for some people. They want to race or ram you. 

[Strangely Brown]

1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

Kia also with the EV5 and EV9. So it's all happening.

Speaking of the EV9...

 

[Mike2222]

1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

I didn't put a price limit on the vehicle so I'm not sure where you got this from.

 - your original post:

On 12/2/2023 at 7:48 PM, Nick72 said:

Normally I couldn't afford nor justify a 50k car

 

1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

since I have 6 graduate and postgraduate qualifications in engjneering, physics... What I wanted to do with the post was to understand options and what folks think about the BEV options

As mentioned earlier, I'm not angry, but this is what I have an issue with - to a naive forumite looking for advice/education, your statements could be very misleading, and  further propogate mistrust in BEVs, because they don't hold true to the real world. 

 

You suggest you are entertaining discussion/opinion, but simultaneously are purporting that the information you bring to the conversation is sacrosanct, and your justification for this is your education. However, if your degrees or subsequent professional experience were actually relevant in this field then it is genuinely surprising that you would be asking our layperson opinions, because your educational contemporaries +/- likely social contacts from working in the field would be able to give you far more explicit/detailed analysis of the current state of Battery and vehicle manufacturering. Instead, you make seemingly baseless estimations of a real world translation of manufacturers' promotional materials (your x0.7 metric for worst case scenario winter motorway driving is about as good as licking your finger, sticking it out the window of a moving car and telling me it's windy outside - it might be true in certain circumstances but it's nonsense to base meaningful decisions on). By your own admission, you have never lived with a BEV, and your info comes from the same press releases I have read, or from chats to neighbours/friends who have BEVs, or from Internet 'pub chats' [forums]. Hardly peer-reviewed credibility, and many BEV owners quote(/brag) best case efficiency, not worst case. 

 

Finally, and perhaps the key achilles heel in your argument that your scientific background gives credibility to your regurgitation of press releases (Toyota are nowhere near production ready for solid state batteries in vehicles for sale - they have only just signed an agreement in principle to build a factory to build the cells/battery units, let alone have a production vehicle in the pipeline for 2026-28), is that you have not thought to do your own real world experiment - You currently possess a 2 tonne, SUV-shaped vehicle with a 0.32 drag coefficient (most BEV SUVs seem to be around 0.29, but evidently there is a ~5% variance between different wind tunnel testing facilities) which you could choose to load up exactly as per your normal use case, then on wet/cold/windy days in your local environ & winter climate, preheat from the plug & press hold charge button when starting your journey, then swap to EV mode when on motorway, and see what efficiency you get with your normal driving style.... Yet you're on here making pie in the sky statements about indeterminate future Battery technology and steadfastly ignoring the realities of driving in the real world with other drivers and environmental variances. You personally can't countenance the possibility of waiting for a public charger, so the idea that you are going to sit at a static/perfect 70mph, even if you did have an open road to do it on every long drive, is fundamentally implausible. 

 

I've occasionally butted heads with some others about the climate merits of ICE vs BEV, but I've never purported to be more than an interested layperson (and never felt the need to mention my own multiple degrees & postgraduate qualifications in my field - a field that has nothing to do with Battery technology, but lots to do with calling bull excrement on human behaviours & conversational nuances). At least @Cyker, @philip42h, and @Flatcoat are not trying to mislead anyone with their opinions/preferences about BEV small vehicles, or for towing, at a reasonable acquisition price - they simply acknowledge that they'll believe it when they see it (apologies for putting words in people's mouths if inaccurate).

 

Im not looking for a flame war, but I feel it's important for newbies to see a counteropinion. You've said your piece, I've said mine. 

 

DOI - 2022 RAV4 PHEV & 2018 Nissan Leaf Mk2 40kwh owner. 

[Cyker]

Well it should be taken as given that anything said on a forum is mostly opinion and might not always be fact and I'm sure Nick was just giving ballpark guestimates - As you say, you can't accurately throw numbers about for real world cases (We can barely throw them out under lab conditions!  ) so don't take them as literals.

The thing is there are a lot of us that like the idea of EVs, but are frustrated that they're still not up to the unrealistic levels of performance that was promised we'd be at around this time - I've been waiting a long time and it's particularly annoying seeing that things like the original Hyundai Kona is still one of the most efficient EVs on the market, and we've seemingly been getting less efficient since then.

I had a lot of hope initially, as that vehicle is so close to my arbitrarily defined requirements, but everything that's been out since then has been moving further away from what I'm after.

I'm pretty much waiting for a Battery breakthrough at this point - A 2x-3x energy density improvement would be enough to push it into useable territory for me, assuming they use that to make the vehicles smaller and lighter instead of the current trend.

But realistically, my Yaris Mk4 is going to be the toughest case for an EV to beat as it's small, relatively light, and can do fairly long ranges on very little fuel, which are very challenging things for current EV tech and will need a significant electrical storage breakthrough to overcome!

 

But, more importantly, do you guys really think the Polestar looks better than a Tesla? While I absolutely despise the controls and interface in Teslas, I've always liked their understated but sleek modern design. The Polestar looks like a literal brick!!  To be fair Polestar is basically Volvo, so they're designing to type, but even the grill gives me the heebie-jeebies - It looks like a load of teeth coming after my Yaris when I see one behind me and gives me flashbacks of that scary Weird Dreams game you had to phone in to play on the saturday morning childrens show Going Live!!   

[Yugguy1970]

Mike's China comment made me laugh.

I like the brick styling, it's why I have a rav4 🤣

[Strangely Brown]

48 minutes ago, Cyker said:

But, more importantly, do you guys really think the Polestar looks better than a Tesla? While I absolutely despise the controls and interface in Teslas, I've always liked their understated but sleek modern design. The Polestar looks like a literal brick!!  To be fair Polestar is basically Volvo, so they're designing to type, but even the grill gives me the heebie-jeebies - It looks like a load of teeth coming after my Yaris when I see one behind me and gives me flashbacks of that scary Weird Dreams game you had to phone in to play on the saturday morning childrens show Going Live!!   

Yes. I really can't stand the styling of Teslas (actually Teslas full stop). Comparatively speaking the Polestar and Ioniq5 are much better looking. They may be bricks but then I drive a RAV4 so aero was never really high on the list.

Volvo, and thus Polestar, are Chinese now[*] and... errr... no thank you. There is, IMO, a difference between products "made" in China for a US or Japanese or European company and products made in China for a Chinese company. I'll pass on the latter.

[*]

[GBgraham]

On 12/2/2023 at 7:48 PM, Nick72 said:

Just had notice and although my R4P is not due to be replaced until August they've pulled forward the ordering window by 3 or 4 months due to the supply chain issues and demand vs supply for hybrids and EVs. According to the letter.

I was hoping for a little more time as the EVs are getting close to my driving requirements and I get a better benefit in kind tax deal along with slightly lower personal mileage running costs. Supposedly it's better for the environment but don't get me started. 

If there's an ICE involved then it has to be a PHEV to get the 7 or so percent BiK tax. Needs to have AWD capability as I do some off road in the Lakes and other parks. Needs to be SUV sized for all my gear.

Most of my trips are under 28 to 35 mile round trips so it's great doing that in EV mode in the R4P. Then about 2 to 4 times a month I have a long business trip drive. Up to about 320 miles in the round trip. Late spring to learly Autumn add in 2 trips a month of up to 200 mile round trips for holidays and visiting our second home (tiny but nice). 

If an EV it needs to have c. 320 to 340 miles range (winter, motorway, real world). I'd have gone for a lower figure previously but my work journeys are now closer to 320 mile round trips worst case. And there's no way I want to be recharging in the service station lotto after a long day. I've seen the chaos.

If there aren't any good options (suggestions please) then it looks like the RAV 4 PHEV GR Sport but I need to book a test drive given the suspension stiffening.

Thoughts welcome everyone.

Normally I couldn't afford nor justify a 50k car (apart from the AMG previously, and more than 50k 😅,... very unhappy wife) but the low BiK tax and company subsidies essentially means I'm only paying for a 3 yr lease for a 25 to 30k car rather than a 50k car.  As we have a company blanket insurance policy I don't have to worry about anything like that and note that the insurance premium has gone bananas. Fortunately everything is sorted by the company. Breakdown, insurance, service & maintenance, everything. Good for 20k miles a year but I don't get anywhere close to that. Very fortunate really.

I do love Toyota reliability and robustness so there's no way I'm going near a Peugeot, Renault,  Vauxhaul, Seat, Fiat etc. Merc yes. BMW yes. Volvo possibly. Would consider anything in the middle. 

 

🤓

 

 

 

 

The GR was a no no for me primarily because of it's ride and sports seats, as it wouldn't suit my physique and the old rattling bones.

For what I class as an expensive car the RAV4 PHEV I am slowly finding these do lack the niceties that say the South Korean cars have. I can't speak for the Volvo because I didn't even look at these with being runt Ford's with the new parents being Chinese.

I feel sure the more you look the more the decision will become more difficult but good hunting.

[Nick72]

2 hours ago, Mike2222 said:

 - your original post:

 

As mentioned earlier, I'm not angry, but this is what I have an issue with - to a naive forumite looking for advice/education, your statements could be very misleading, and  further propogate mistrust in BEVs, because they don't hold true to the real world. 

 

You suggest you are entertaining discussion/opinion, but simultaneously are purporting that the information you bring to the conversation is sacrosanct, and your justification for this is your education. However, if your degrees or subsequent professional experience were actually relevant in this field then it is genuinely surprising that you would be asking our layperson opinions, because your educational contemporaries +/- likely social contacts from working in the field would be able to give you far more explicit/detailed analysis of the current state of battery and vehicle manufacturering. Instead, you make seemingly baseless estimations of a real world translation of manufacturers' promotional materials (your x0.7 metric for worst case scenario winter motorway driving is about as good as licking your finger, sticking it out the window of a moving car and telling me it's windy outside - it might be true in certain circumstances but it's nonsense to base meaningful decisions on). By your own admission, you have never lived with a BEV, and your info comes from the same press releases I have read, or from chats to neighbours/friends who have BEVs, or from Internet 'pub chats' [forums]. Hardly peer-reviewed credibility, and many BEV owners quote(/brag) best case efficiency, not worst case. 

 

Finally, and perhaps the key achilles heel in your argument that your scientific background gives credibility to your regurgitation of press releases (Toyota are nowhere near production ready for solid state batteries in vehicles for sale - they have only just signed an agreement in principle to build a factory to build the cells/battery units, let alone have a production vehicle in the pipeline for 2026-28), is that you have not thought to do your own real world experiment - You currently possess a 2 tonne, SUV-shaped vehicle with a 0.32 drag coefficient (most BEV SUVs seem to be around 0.29, but evidently there is a ~5% variance between different wind tunnel testing facilities) which you could choose to load up exactly as per your normal use case, then on wet/cold/windy days in your local environ & winter climate, preheat from the plug & press hold charge button when starting your journey, then swap to EV mode when on motorway, and see what efficiency you get with your normal driving style.... Yet you're on here making pie in the sky statements about indeterminate future battery technology and steadfastly ignoring the realities of driving in the real world with other drivers and environmental variances. You personally can't countenance the possibility of waiting for a public charger, so the idea that you are going to sit at a static/perfect 70mph, even if you did have an open road to do it on every long drive, is fundamentally implausible. 

 

I've occasionally butted heads with some others about the climate merits of ICE vs BEV, but I've never purported to be more than an interested layperson (and never felt the need to mention my own multiple degrees & postgraduate qualifications in my field - a field that has nothing to do with battery technology, but lots to do with calling bull excrement on human behaviours & conversational nuances). At least @Cyker, @philip42h, and @Flatcoat are not trying to mislead anyone with their opinions/preferences about BEV small vehicles, or for towing, at a reasonable acquisition price - they simply acknowledge that they'll believe it when they see it (apologies for putting words in people's mouths if inaccurate).

 

Im not looking for a flame war, but I feel it's important for newbies to see a counteropinion. You've said your piece, I've said mine. 

 

DOI - 2022 RAV4 PHEV & 2018 Nissan Leaf Mk2 40kwh owner. 

I said normally. But I have in the past. Noting the R4P was 54k when I got it. So it's a preference and not a hard constraint. Also noting that an EV has a BiK tax of even lower than a PHEV so I can get a 70k car and effectively only be paying for a 40k car. 

Everything else you've said is utter troll drivel looking for an argument which im not going to entertain. I could veryveasily provide the links and counters to drivel that has splurged out but I won't.

Why would you be on a Toyota RAV4 forum if you own a Nissan leaf? Bizarre no?

 

[Nick72]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

Well it should be taken as given that anything said on a forum is mostly opinion and might not always be fact and I'm sure Nick was just giving ballpark guestimates - As you say, you can't accurately throw numbers about for real world cases (We can barely throw them out under lab conditions!  ) so don't take them as literals.

The thing is there are a lot of us that like the idea of EVs, but are frustrated that they're still not up to the unrealistic levels of performance that was promised we'd be at around this time - I've been waiting a long time and it's particularly annoying seeing that things like the original Hyundai Kona is still one of the most efficient EVs on the market, and we've seemingly been getting less efficient since then.

I had a lot of hope initially, as that vehicle is so close to my arbitrarily defined requirements, but everything that's been out since then has been moving further away from what I'm after.

I'm pretty much waiting for a battery breakthrough at this point - A 2x-3x energy density improvement would be enough to push it into useable territory for me, assuming they use that to make the vehicles smaller and lighter instead of the current trend.

But realistically, my Yaris Mk4 is going to be the toughest case for an EV to beat as it's small, relatively light, and can do fairly long ranges on very little fuel, which are very challenging things for current EV tech and will need a significant electrical storage breakthrough to overcome!

 

But, more importantly, do you guys really think the Polestar looks better than a Tesla? While I absolutely despise the controls and interface in Teslas, I've always liked their understated but sleek modern design. The Polestar looks like a literal brick!!  To be fair Polestar is basically Volvo, so they're designing to type, but even the grill gives me the heebie-jeebies - It looks like a load of teeth coming after my Yaris when I see one behind me and gives me flashbacks of that scary Weird Dreams game you had to phone in to play on the saturday morning childrens show Going Live!!   

Absolutely.  Ball park figures. And opinion. As for any engineering specifics and I'm more than happy to argue the toss with anyone. 😀

I think Mike was missing the point. Drag coefficient is not a barrier to an SUV attaining the sorts of electric ranges I'm seeking. Which lets be honedt arent exactky huge and arent too far off current implemented tech. We just aren't quite there yet.

Model S I like a little and I think the new Model 3 highlander is looking good. But the current model 3 I'm not a fan of the look (I see my neighboursthrough the office window most days), the model Y makes me think pregnant guppy, and I was on the fence with the model X. What I really like about the Polestar 2 is it has a bit of a classic US muscle car look. One of the reasons I went for the RAV.  It looks cool and gets a great EV range fir a PHEV, great fuel economy, excellent performance, roomy, AWD, low BiK tax. 

Polestarv2 I guess is all down to taste. Everyone is different. As I've alluded, if it had a bit more EV range on the performance model I might have traded out some of my other requirements. 

[Yugguy1970]

The where things are made argument is interesting.  We all recoil from Chinese made cars and I like that my Rav was made in Japan but the missus Yaris is Derby I think? and Toyota have plants all over Europe all making cars to the same standard.

I guess what I'm saying is that if a car comes high on the reliability scores does it really matter where it's made?