Cant Change Gear

[chatman]

Thanks Anchorman.....Always liked Big Steam Engines and fascinated by the mechanical movements off them...explaining the DMF as you have has answered a lot of questions and some I did not know about as well....I agree this thread should be pinned as this is going to come up more and more often on here as more members join up and ask those all important first questions.....I was prepared in my mind for, that one day the DMF would go...but when it did it gave none of the normal associated tell tale signs...only the obligatory cost we have all come to know....seeing the RAV up on the ramp and most of the bottom of the engine lying on the floor in bits...and a jack holding the rest in place....was a sad sight but also see where all the labour is getting to it goes....(as said before I used to own a Megane II and changing the front head light bulb in that is a major job for either a contortionist or big bucks for the garage....technology has it's advantages and also it's costs to us the customer )

The hole in the DMF was on the side that faces the Pin Plate, the clutch side was OK and the clutch fine as well...changing both though....

[anchorman]

If you can get me some photos I will work them in to the post as well.

Cheers

[Fujisan]

Any news Chatman?

[chatman]

Any news Chatman?

:yahoo: Yep picking car up tomorrow morning..... woop woop all fixed and ready to roll....

£1606 to fix :crybaby: New DMF, Clutch, Pin Plate (damaged by DMF shattering) and gear box oil....& all labour....

See how it goes tomorrow morning and report on it then...

[bothwell_buyer]

Jeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzz

expensive

Good wishes on some longetivity but.

Ah can say that ah got ma RAV back the day for a fortnight til the next stage of work starts.

What wi a brand new top spec clutch; the turbo engine wi GT4 intercooler; 18" wheels and new tyres etc, it was difficult to safely check out the performance as we had light showers of rain all afternoon making the roads greasy/slippy. I'll spend the next fortnight getting used to what is almost a new car. Marc at the garage - www.the-garage.co.uk - (no link inserted) had the RAV out and got 100mph in third gear !! I stuck my foot down in first gear, then chickened! Its incredible - the 3SGTE runs smoother than the 3SFE and is loads more powerful. We know that there is more to do once the engine beds down. Tweaking the suspension and replacing the rear bushes are a top priority, but I can say from 1 evenings drive in it that I have never experienced anything like it - not even in a celica.

all we need now is for scotland to beat Italy

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[chatman]

Got RAV back this morning.....went for little drive....Changes gear so smoothly now and no judder, Almost stalled it leaving garage as was not used to the new clutch biting point...Also they have adjusted my tracking, so not only change gear smoothly but also steer straight as well :driving:

Here's the offending part's and the damage sustained to the DMF and the dent in the Pin Plate Cover:

RAV4 Duall Mass Fly Wheel

Smashed hole can be seen at top

O and nice little box it came in

Closer image. This is what was causing the metallic rattling sound, I mentioned at start of thread...

Clutch and plate

This is the Pin Plate Cover, You can just see the dent the shattered DMF part did to it.

Anchorman you can add these pictures to your detailed explanation if you want so we can get the topic pinned....

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Fujisan]

Got RAV back this morning.....went for little drive....Changes gear so smoothly now and no judder, Almost stalled it leaving garage as was not used to the new clutch biting point...Also they have adjusted my tracking, so not only change gear smoothly but also steer straight as well :driving:

So glad your RAV is back up and running so well.

Some mighty impressive photo's........that's some damage!

No wonder you had a rattling sound! :(

Just happy you are back on the road again

[dave.m]

:) :) Good news Chatman, glad everything is ok again. Now I know what to expect when mine goes

Anyhow, going to tackle Toyota for some of the bill for the parts ?

[anchorman]

Chatman

If you still have those parts could you do me a favour and seperate the two components of the DMF shown in the first two photos. If possible I would be grateful if you would turn those over and let me see the inside. I am particularly interested in what has torn out of the four holes of the half with the starter ring gear. It would be appreciated if you could remind me of the full VIN no (by pm if you prefer).

This is quite interesting because Toyota have told me that they had a problem with fixings (bolts) coming loose on up to 2002 built vehicles and on the first picture you can see from the witness marks around the holes that the entire flywheel was loose before it failed. It seems like one of the bolts has dropped out and it is this which has torn the two elements of the DMF apart. (I would just like to see the insides to see if there are any more clues). This is a quote from the letter;

"The issue regarding Dual Mass Flywheels relates to RAV4 CLA20 and CLA21 models (early diesel vehicles) and was found to be that under hard use (towing etc) the flywheel securing bolts were unable to provide sufficient tightness. This was remedied by an improved flywheel and revised fastening and tightening processes, which were introduced into RAV4 vehicle production from August 2002. The improvements were made from VIN numbers,

JTEYG20V400009863

JTHEG20V600026183

JTHEG20V606013132"

As you know I have held back on releasing the letter because it needed some clarification. Toyota have now asked me to phone them tomorrow to try and clear these points up and I will hopefully be able to pass on something a bit more meaningful soon.

Cheers

[chatman]

I am particularly interested in what has torn out of the four holes of the half with the starter ring gear. I

Those are covered by paper....I believe the mechanic put his fingers in them....unsure though...When I first viewed it up on the ramp and the old part on the floor...he said this..then showed me the hole and the part rattling around in the box...Also when looking in the hole I can see other broken bits in there looks like a spring type shape....

Will try and prize them apart (do they come apart ;) ;) ) and take photo's for you.....

Cant do that just yet as it's monsoon season here at the moment....

[anchorman]

I am particularly interested in what has torn out of the four holes of the half with the starter ring gear. I

Those are covered by paper....I believe the mechanic put his fingers in them....unsure though...When I first viewed it up on the ramp and the old part on the floor...he said this..then showed me the hole and the part rattling around in the box...Also when looking in the hole I can see other broken bits in there looks like a spring type shape....

Will try and prize them apart (do they come apart ;) ;) ) and take photo's for you.....

Cant do that just yet as it's monsoon season here at the moment....

The weather is cr@p here too. It snowed most of yesterday and is just grey, wet and horrible today.

If you can get those halves apart it would be good to see inside but mind what you do and don't worry too much if you can't.

Cheers

[don21]

Agree with Anchormans comments abot DMFs.We are changing lots of them and Transits in particular suffer badly with this fault.Also the peugeot HDI engine we have come across faults with.Problem is these days it is no longer an hours work to change a clutch.The way modern cars are built means more and more of them need the engine pulling out to do this job.As a small independent garage we can not possibly invest in the individual manufacturers special tooling to make this easier so we usually find a way to get the box out in situ.

The thing is guys I work on cars all day hence the reason I drive a Toyota.So I can have my own time to myself.I think that is the reason we all buy them,they are so damn reliable.

I also think that because of this we should expect Toyotas DMF design to be better and more reliable than the competitions.

Forums like this should help Toyota build a better product.All power to us.

By the way Anchorman is right,at the moment we are paying the research and development premium each time we buy a DMF but I have noticed they are already getting cheaper.

[anchorman]

Agree with Anchormans comments abot DMFs.We are changing lots of them and Transits in particular suffer badly with this fault.Also the peugeot HDI engine we have come across faults with.Problem is these days it is no longer an hours work to change a clutch.The way modern cars are built means more and more of them need the engine pulling out to do this job.As a small independent garage we can not possibly invest in the individual manufacturers special tooling to make this easier so we usually find a way to get the box out in situ.

The thing is guys I work on cars all day hence the reason I drive a Toyota.So I can have my own time to myself.I think that is the reason we all buy them,they are so damn reliable.

I also think that because of this we should expect Toyotas DMF design to be better and more reliable than the competitions.

Forums like this should help Toyota build a better product.All power to us.

By the way Anchorman is right,at the moment we are paying the research and development premium each time we buy a DMF but I have noticed they are already getting cheaper.

[chatman]

If you can get those halves apart it would be good to see inside but mind what you do and don't worry too much if you can't.

Cheers

Tried to get the DMF apart but to no avail :( :(

I dont have thie special screw head attachement needed for these..........

so I took some close up shots of the damage...In these you can clearley see the broken part and what looks like a spring, but this is shattered in bits...

Tried getting this bit out but could not..that is one tuff peice if steal...how this caused the hole must have been some force

When they say "The bolts may fail" what part of the DMF is that....

[anchorman]

Chatman

The bolts did fail on yours. They are the eight bolts that hold the DMF to the crankshaft and if you look at the holes here you will see the typical witness marks from the damage caused by the flywheel being loose. If you zoom in to the holes you can see the shape of the bolt heads erroded into the flange;

As the bolts come loose the DMF will start to run out of true and wobble on the end of the crank. Eventually this very heavy part (and you can vouch for that!) will become loose enough to break one or a number of the eight bolts. All eight would result in the complete loss of drive described by others.

The part you can see inside the cover is one of the spring locating spigots but I believe that the hole was punched through from the outside by one of the failed bolts;

Normally the cavity is relatively small behind the flywheel but as it came loose the bolt was able to get in and the result is the hole you see in the back of the DMF and what you call the pin plate;

This is the corresponding damage from that rogue bolt and accounts for the particularly nasty grinding, banging and jingling. With the DMF out of true it would make clearance of the drive plate impossible and then resultant difficulty in changing gears. It is a bit awkward for me to see this properly because the flash has washed it out a bit but I believe that there is some blueing of the cover which confirms the clutch drag;

It all makes reasonable sense and I thank you for showing these pictures as it all makes for a better understanding of the failure mode and at least we can explain it better when it comes up with the next unfortunate owner.

The draft statement has gone to TGB and I will phone them in the morning to discuss. I may well use some of your photos to add to the separate flywheel description that Fuj asked about.

With your permission of course!

[chatman]

Thanks Anchorman...and yes you can use my pictures "As a picture paints a thousand words" And anything to help out others to understand this annoying failed part and its components....

Here is a zoomed in shot of the centre plate...and you can quite clearly see the bolt marks as you described...

[turkey+ham]

I am new to this forum as a result of the same failure as chatman had. Have had so many conflicting stories about what I need to fix the problem. The variation in prices is incredible. My main dealership quoted a price of £597 for the clutch kit, while my mechanic was quoted £850. Apparently valeo make a similar part that does the same job and it's a lot cheaper - does anyone know anything about this?

By the way, up until this, my Rav 4 was the best car I owned - I will still have Toyota in my driveway, but now not so sure about the R4.

[bothwell_buyer]

I am new to this forum as a result of the same failure as chatman had. Have had so many conflicting stories about what I need to fix the problem. The variation in prices is incredible. My main dealership quoted a price of £597 for the clutch kit, while my mechanic was quoted £850. Apparently valeo make a similar part that does the same job and it's a lot cheaper - does anyone know anything about this?

By the way, up until this, my Rav 4 was the best car I owned - I will still have Toyota in my driveway, but now not so sure about the R4.

Sad start to your first post on this forum! Hope you manage to get it fixed as cheap as poss. No chance of buying one from a wrecked car and sticking in a new plate??

NOW, if you'd bought a 3 door petrol, you wouldn't have that problem! ( :P :P ) Oooops, sorry - I must stop posting this comment.