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Toyota Safety Sense

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11 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

You won't be able to assess any realistic percentage via the forum, as we only have a small number of owners of the facelift model. As with any forum, most new members only post when they have an issue, so the percentage of members with TSS problems could be artificially high.

Thanks Mike.  Like you say those with problems always speak loudest (sometimes with good reason)!  

I was really wondering if there are large numbers of people who have the system fitted and have no problems with it.  I could ask my dealership but they sell mainly Yaris/Aygo so won't have had much scope for issues to have arisen.......and also may be slightly biased!

If anyone has positive experiences it would be good to hear them as well as from those who having read the above are clearly not impressed (putting it politely)!  I appreciate numbers may be low on both sides atm.

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Once on the motorway several months back, there was quite heavy traffic so even the fast lane was packed. We weren't really keeping good distances between us but we were still doing 70ish.. Suddently the car in front of me slammed the breaks really hard. Now it happened really fast but my car breaked before I even thought of slamming the breaks and my hazard lights went off.. 

Having said that my dealer seemed more surprised it worked than I was 😳

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21 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

could be artificially high

On the other hand a toyota employee told me it was 100% of Avensis sold at his dealer.  The main problem now is that with the warmer weather I don't expect further problems.  But I do next winter....

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2 hours ago, Martin23 said:

On the other hand a toyota employee told me it was 100% of Avensis sold at his dealer.  The main problem now is that with the warmer weather I don't expect further problems.  But I do next winter....

.... which still may be a small number - we don't know whether that dealership's 100% is 200 cars or 2.

The Avensis isn't one of Toyota's big sellers (look to the Yaris and the Aygo for that), selling approx 5,300-5,500 per annum in the UK.

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1 hour ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

a small number

Very true.  I mentioned 100% Avensis, but he said that all TSS-equipped vehicles sold by his dealership were affected and as we know that includes Auris, which is sold in greater numbers than Avensis..  However big or small it is, though, I'm not minded to wait until next winter to find out if its really fixed, I know I continued to have problems long after my car was modified ......

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Think I'll have to test drive an Avensis and see how annoying the warning sign is and whether I could live with it on the occasions that it displays.  Presumably a carefully positioned small obstruction could 'disable' the system and bring up the warning - obviously I wouldn't drive it on the road while doing this! 

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8 hours ago, Willss said:

carefully positioned small obstruction could 'disable'

Yes.  Sit in the car with the engine running and the door closed and get someone to put a piece of card over the camera pod.  You might ignore it during the day, but at night I found it a major distraction.

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4 hours ago, Martin23 said:

Yes.  Sit in the car with the engine running and the door closed and get someone to put a piece of card over the camera pod.  You might ignore it during the day, but at night I found it a major distraction.

Thanks, my local dealership is OK with 24hr test drives so would give me a good opportunity.

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On 01/03/2017 at 3:26 PM, estate said:

I think Terry has already proven that cleaning the glass doesn’t cure the problem he has with the TSS, so don’t think he will too pleased with the response.

I can add any weight to highlighting his problem, as the TSS on my Avensis has worked as advertised, since I took delivery of the car two weeks ago.

Hi Will,

As I mentioned in a previous post the TSS is working fine on my Avensis and hasn’t give me any cause for concern to date. The only difference I can see is that I took delivery of the car in mid-February and there haven’t been any severe frosty mornings, so after scraping the windscreen clear before setting-off I don’t get any warnings from the TSS at all. Let’s hope it stays that way.

 

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On 29/01/2017 at 4:53 PM, Makokk said:

But if they have solved the problem surely they should be replacing the ones that are faulty

I met with a rep from Toyoyta HQ earlier in the week.  A new software update will be available next week and was applied to my car yesterday.  I understand this is the production version that is now fitted to new cars of which there have apparently been no reported TSS issues (?).  However, it was admitted that with the warmer weather I might not be able to tell if it has been effective.

Its interesting that the main thrust of the update seeks to address a problem that is not caused by condensation.  In certain circumstances at night if the road has no markings and there is no other traffic, for some parts of its field of vision the system finds it difficult to pick out, well, "anything" it and assumes that it therefore can't see because it is blocked.  Even if the area of "non-vision" is not directly on the road ahead, the system will shut down and issue the TSS alerts we all detest!  This set of circimstances is certainly consistent with about 75% of the situations where my TSS triggered alerts (lonely country road at night, no centre line, no signage , no other traffic - sounds like the start of an episode of "The Invaders" !!). 

I've seen the methodology they've used to identify the issue and understand the steps that have been taken within the software to correct it and as a former project manager in IT I would fully support the approach: I can see why they've done it and I can see why it should help overcome the problem they have identified.

For me, however, it doesn't answer the question of why the problem only ocurrs when the temperature is low;  or during the day or in very bright sunlight as some drivers here have reported.  I had the first software update / heat pad but the problem continued throughout the winter in day-time as well as night, including during heavy rain.  However, as day and night-time temperatures have risen in the last 4 weeks I haven't seen the problem, so its not only to do with the camera's inability to see "properly" at night....( so I'm also wondering if perhaps there is condensation on the camera lens or the laser lens as well as on the inside of the pod windscreen, if the heat pad clears the windscreen, does it also clear the other two?)

So my issue is now "How do I know they fixed it?", which leads me to "do I want to wait until September / October / November to find out" and "if it's not fixed then, I'll have experienced another (say) 6 months depreciation".  So this is the problem I'm wrestling with: do I keep the car or do I go for a Toyota with RADAR TSS (C-HR or Prius at my budget level).

It's worth pointing out that I had a Prius for 2 weeks in January when the TSS problems (with many of our cars, including my Avensis)  were at their height and didn't experience a singe TSS alert in nearly 600 miles driving through the worst that the North of England could offer.

Finally, I do believe Toyota is trying with good faith to solve this problem as soon as they can, I've owned nearly 80 cars since I passed my test in 1969, many of them were new (company cars) and believe me I find Toyota and its dealers are far and away the best so whatever happens I do intend to stay with the brand.

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I had the "dark road no TSS" issues but I mostly travel on motorways now and was still getting it up to a few weeks ago so not really sure if it's just the temperature or a combination of other factors. Having said that if the sensors can't see at night shouldn't it be something Toyota should have tested out thoroughly before rolling it out? I bought my car myself, not for a company to drive for a few years and then exchange. I bought it for life and expect to keep it for the next 20 years so you can appreciate it has more impact to me that others perhaps. If it isn't fixed, whatever the issue thar's causing it what am I meant to do? Spend another £20000+ and buy another one? I don't have that money to spare. I personally don't trust Toyota anymore, I didn't even think of going to other car makers and look at other cars, I gave my father my 2008 auris that I bought used and bought the brand new model with the safety sense. They never mentioned any limitations and they fobbed me off for months at the begining. Can you believe it when I first took it in a few weeks after I bought it they made me wait for apprx 3 months while they waited for toyota to "get back to them about this mysterious issue that a small fraction of cars seemed to have develop"? Had I known I wouldn't have spent the money and just kept my old car.. 

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1 hour ago, Makokk said:

Had I known I wouldn't have spent the money and just kept my old car

I've bought all my own cars since 2000, so I appreciate what you say and I do agree that had I known about the TSS problem I would have kept my last Avensis.  This car was funded from my redundancy payoff - it was intended to be a car for life too, Maria.  I know I'm fortunate to be able to afford to change but only if Toyota comes up with an offer that's too good to refuse, if not I'll probably have keep it and hope the problem is fixed. 

In the wider automotive world I've seen many scandals which much more directly impact safety; Vauxhall cars that spontaneously combust (and still not fixed by the manufacturer?); Tanaka airbags that can kill you if triggered - the dangers known and hidden by the manufacturer over an extended period; and (e.g.) VW comitting fraud on a grand scale whilst brushing off UK owners requests for lost value because "that's not our target market".....  so from that perspective Toyota may have been slow; may have kept dealers short of information but are by no means in the same league as the above.

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3 hours ago, Makokk said:

shouldn't it be something Toyota should have tested out thoroughly before rolling it out? I bought my car myself, not for a company to drive for a few years and then exchange. I bought it for life and expect to keep it for the next 20 years so you can appreciate it has more impact to me that others perhaps.

Toyota will have been sold the system by Continental at the design stage who will have promised that it would meet certain performance standards (which it obviously hasn't yet in practice). Part of the reason that these things appear to drag on is that Toyota are dealing with you as the end user on one hand & dealing with Continental as the supplier on the other hand - another link in the chain always slows things down.

I would say, however, that expecting to get 20 years out of a modern car is perhaps unrealistic. They are more complicated & the probability is something will go wrong at some point that is an uneconomic repair.

If it isn't fixed, whatever the issue thar's causing it what am I meant to do? Spend another £20000+ and buy another one? I don't have that money to spare. I personally don't trust Toyota anymore,

As has been mentioned already Toyota are the best of the mass manufacturers at actually standing behind their products & their warranties.

 

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I know here in the UK people tend to hold on to cars for 10 years maximum normally but in Cyprus people don't change their cars often. The buy more cars as the family gets bigger. My father initiallly had a Toyota Starlet which he kept for nearly 35 years before getting rid of it, he bought a corolla approximately 15 years ago which he still has, I sent him my 8 year old auris and I have the new auris. I mean things start to get squeaky and there are cars with better technology coming out but never had to do any major stuff to the cars so far. we had other non Toyota cars as we are a big family. We used to have a Pajero which we don't have anymore. We have an 10 year old Ford Focus that is still working fine despite my brother crashing it last year and having to  replace nearly everything on  it. The insurance marked it as total loss - my father ordered the parts from abroad and fixed it because he didn't want to spend on a new car.

If I were Toyota I would independently test any system that I decide to put on my cars as at the end of the day, Toyota is the one that is going to be held responsible for any problems and financially impacted if they have to replace or repair parts or cars for unhappy customers or if people decide to buy something more reliable. It was a poor decision on their part and people do expect safer cars now, I bought my car expecting my systems to work. I paid extra for it. It is mostly disabled for nearly 4-5 months a year.. What I am trying to say is that i didn't think twice when I bought my car, I went straight to Toyota. I won't make that mistake in the future. I was planning to buy in 2-3 years the C-HR but will be probably looking at the nissan qashqai or something..

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6 hours ago, Makokk said:

I know here in the UK people tend to hold on to cars for 10 years maximum normally but in Cyprus people don't change their cars often. The buy more cars as the family gets bigger. My father initiallly had a Toyota Starlet which he kept for nearly 35 years before getting rid of it, he bought a corolla approximately 15 years ago which he still has, I sent him my 8 year old auris and I have the new auris. I mean things start to get squeaky and there are cars with better technology coming out but never had to do any major stuff to the cars so far. we had other non Toyota cars as we are a big family. 

Whilst you possibly don't have the corrosion issues (drier, warmer climate, little winter road salting albeit as an island still near the sea?) that we have in the UK as cars become more complicated - particularly electronics - there is more chance of an uneconomic to repair failure (also perhaps parts availability down the line?).

If I were Toyota I would independently test any system that I decide to put on my cars as at the end of the day, Toyota is the one that is going to be held responsible for any problems and financially impacted if they have to replace or repair parts or cars for unhappy customers or if people decide to buy something more reliable. It was a poor decision on their part and people do expect safer cars now, .

Toyota definitely will have done some testing before committing to production release. However, having done a fair amount of beta testing for both hardware & software myself, & a fair amount of association with the military where nothing is "squaddy-proof" you can absolutely guarantee that issues will show up on release that didn't appear even in many 1000s of hours of testing. The car design cycle is such that these specification decisions will probably have been made 3 years before production & by the time that they got there they are heavily committed. No doubt they will have some kind of clause in their contract with Continental that allows for compensation for resolving issues found in production.

I don't know that people expect cars (want, probably) at the middle>lower market levels to have active safety systems but fitting TSS of course was an aim to do so. Your car is no less safe than one without TSS & safer even if it is only partially functioning.

 

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All manufacturers test components and systems extensively before including them on production vehicles.

Nissan aren't bullet-proof - their current issues with chassis corrosion on the Nissan Navara, which is a far more serious safety issue than Toyota's TSS, where vehicles have snapped in half. For example

chassis.jpg

chassis 2.jpg

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On 7-4-2017 at 9:24 PM, Martin23 said:

I met with a rep from Toyoyta HQ earlier in the week.  A new software update will be available next week and was applied to my car yesterday.

Hello Martin, here in the Netherlands I am bringing in my Auris Touring Sports 2015 for it's first 15.000 KM service to the dealer.

I also suffered the dreaded TSS "Temporarily unavailable" throughout the mild winter. So I brought to their attention the TSB (Technical service Bulletin BE-0071T-1016 TS dated 15.11.16) and they were thankful for that (?!) and will apply it on a new service appointment on April 22nd. They will also replace the cracked panorama roof under guarantee (!).

Do you happen to know if the software update you mention is included in mentioned TSB? Or is it even newer and has its own TSB?

 

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4 hours ago, Saint Nick said:

Do you happen to know

Hi Nick

Sorry I don't know for sure.  All I can tell you is the software update is not released until this week in the UK, so my dealer did not have it, it was provided by the Toyota manager who met me at the dealer.  (I was impressed that he drove down from Toyota HQ near London just to meet me, nearly 200km). 

Perhaps you could ask the dealer the date of "your" TSB and explain to them that in the UK a new update is only just released?  That might prompt them to contact Toyota Netherlands to see if its to be released there too....

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On 9-4-2017 at 10:27 PM, Martin23 said:

Hi Nick

Sorry I don't know for sure.  All I can tell you is the software update is not released until this week in the UK, so my dealer did not have it, it was provided by the Toyota manager who met me at the dealer.  (I was impressed that he drove down from Toyota HQ near London just to meet me, nearly 200km). 

Perhaps you could ask the dealer the date of "your" TSB and explain to them that in the UK a new update is only just released?  That might prompt them to contact Toyota Netherlands to see if its to be released there too....

Hi Martin,

Well, I have my Auris TS back from service with a new panorama roof under guarantee (the original developed a crack), and they applied the TSB (they were grateful for me pointing it out to them). It included a software update. We'll see how it behaves next winter...

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1 hour ago, Saint Nick said:

We'll see how it behaves next winter...

Yes, that's the frustrating part Nick -  having to wait 6 months to find out if it worked!!  My Avensis is actually a perfect fit for my requirements, but I'm dithering over whether I want to wait 6 months to find out if this worked or replace the car with a C-HR.  The explanation I received from Toyota GB's Head of Quality was that the issue happened at night on unlit, un-marked roads, BUT did not mention the effect of low-ish temperature, nor the fact that some/many of us have had the problem during the day........ Good luck to us all !

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Toyota have now confirmed that Road Sign assist is unreliable and should not be trusted .

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/toyota-safety-sense-a-new-level-of-active-safety-for-the-toyota-range/comment-page-1#comment-1549517

Ella Churchill

Hi Andrew,
Toyota Safety Sense can pick up numbers from alternative places (not just speed limit signs). Therefore, when an incorrect number is showing, this may be due to it finding a number elsewhere (i.e. registration plates). It’s designed as an aid and we therefore recommend looking at road signs too. Many thanks.

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, st901 said:

Toyota have now confirmed that Road Sign assist is unreliable and should not be trusted .

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/toyota-safety-sense-a-new-level-of-active-safety-for-the-toyota-range/comment-page-1#comment-1549517

Ella Churchill

Hi Andrew,
Toyota Safety Sense can pick up numbers from alternative places (not just speed limit signs). Therefore, when an incorrect number is showing, this may be due to it finding a number elsewhere (i.e. registration plates). It’s designed as an aid and we therefore recommend looking at road signs too. Many thanks.

No - they haven't said it is unreliable and should not be trusted.

It is an aid - much in the same way that gear change indicators, cold temperature and ice warnings, lane departure warnings, etc are driver aids. None of these systems are infallible - they are meant to advise, and not to absolve the driver from taking notice of their surroundings, and driving responsibly.

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My Auris reads incorrectly when going past dirty road signs that cannot be read properly, one sign near me is covered in road grime, every time I go past it reads 10 MPH, it actually says 40 MPH. Nothing is infallable. There is also a sign that has been slightly turned on a angle to the road, the car sometimes reads that sign, other times it cannot see it. I still know what it says, I can read it for myself :rolleyes:

 

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15 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

No - they haven't said it is unreliable and should not be trusted.

It is an aid - much in the same way that gear change indicators, cold temperature and ice warnings, lane departure warnings, etc are driver aids. None of these systems are infallible - they are meant to advise, and not to absolve the driver from taking notice of their surroundings, and driving responsibly.

I don't think you can compare advice on when to change gear with statutory speed limits .

When  RSA is " advising "  a maximum speed limit of 40mph in a 30 mph zone because the system has missed a 30mph sign then the system is worthless and potentially dangerous unless the driver ignores the advise given . Once the driver learns to ignore the advice provided by RSA then system has no value to the owner .

 

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26 minutes ago, st901 said:

I don't think you can compare advice on when to change gear with statutory speed limits 

Yes I can, and I have. 

My Garmin sat nav with the speed camera database enabled, often picks up a speed limit or speed camera location from an adjacent road - not the road I' m actually driving on. More often than not, the sat nav clearly shows that it has picked up a speed limit or camera from an adjacent road. Again this is a driver aid - which provides advice, not 100% guaranteed accurate information about the speed limit that I am subject to at the time.

Again the onus is on the driver to be aware of one's surroundings and to drive responsibly within those surroundings - which includes speed limits.

At the end of the day, if one was caught speeding and one's defence was that a driver aid (whether TSS, sat nav, smartphone or similar) showed a higher speed limit than that actually in force, legally the defence wouldn't stand up.

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