Dealership Scammed me on Brake Fluid Change

[Big_D]

On 12/1/2023 at 11:51 PM, Shared said:

My approach would be to ask them whether they agree that in order to flush the fluid completely the system must be bled from each individual cylinder, at each individual wheel, If that can be established the next question would be "How have you done that without leaving witness marks/disturbing the bleed points".

I would also ask that if they are going to check the fluid they drain some into a container from one of the rear wheel cylinders, whilst you observe, depending on my mood I'd also challenge them to do it without disturbing the dust & rust.

Brake testing gizmo's are relatively cheap but of course most people would check from the fluid reservoir, which in your case would probably show fluid that is clearer but also less water contaminated than might be the case at the rear cylinders.

Good luck anyway, like most other I don't think those bleed nipples have been undone recently, in fact if I were you I'd be draining a little fluid myself & checking before returning to the dealer.

But, if you check before returning to the dealer, you would leave the tool marks and the dealer may then say that the tool marks were left by them when they bled the system. Personally, I wouldn't touch anything until the Dealer has confirmed they never bled the system from the brake bleed nipples.

[Cyker]

Oooh that's a good point... If CSI has taught me anything it's don't disturb the 'crime scene'!  

[SB1500]

Hi everybody, thank you for the advice. I really, really appreciate it. This is one of the most serious problems I’ve had compared to my other threads here and I appreciate every single response and insight to the problem.  

not been well tonight but thankfully not the worst. All being well tomorrow, I’m planning to buy some fluid from Halfords and a one man bleeding kit (they’re surprisingly very cheap - watched some reviews / tutorials). 

I think tomorrow I’ll bleed one of the wheel brake lines up at my uncles garage. I’ll video it (ideally as a little video log or how to) - and so I have evidence of what comes out. As well as making 110% sure no air is left in should that be the case.. I’ll see if the fluid coming out looks visibly older / darker than that in the reservoir.  I might buy a turkey baster safely suck a tiny bit out of the reservoir for comparison.  

Going to buy some COMMA brand fluid. As much as I’d love to buy Toyota fluid, that means waiting to Monday and either a 30 mile drive, or buying it from the dealer in question … I want to do it tomorrow if I can. This stuff meets the criteria from the Avensis repair manual for my VIN; 

SAE J1704 or FMVSS No. 116 DOT 4

So, two outcomes - 

= Brake fluid comes out noticeably darker. Through comprehensive videoing, and collecting two samples - I’ll be able to present my findings to them this week.  I’ll then proceed to bleed them tomorrow - it’ll be done. And next time around in 2 years or 25k miles, I’ll buy genuine Toyota stuff for my obsession with genuine fluids. For now, I’m sure this stuff will be fine. Apparently 500ml should be enough for ‘most’ hydraulic brake systems.. 1L should give me enough headway to get it done. If not.. quick run to Halfords to buy some more. 

= Brake fluid comes out clean. Stellar clean, undeniably brand new, beyond a shadow of a doubt.  If that’s the case I’ll still try the other wheels.  It’ll probably mean I replace it anyways with my own… however.. that won’t hurt the car. Won’t cost too much time. And it’s a skill for doing this forever onward.  IF IT WAS CHANGED, I will give my dealership a ring. I’ll tell them what I found. And I’ll apologise for having essentially accused them of this, but hope that they’ve see where  been coming from all the same. I think that would be the honourable thing to do, as well as closing my case with Toyota and the franchise owners and letting them know that I made a misjudgement. 

however, in either case, no more taking it to the dealer for my gearbox oil, coolant and brake fluid changes. To be honest, I only did because I think last year, the genuine fluids weren’t far off the cost of the dealer changing it. Last year the car was in for the EGR Cooler recall so it felt right having had no service history to let them change the coolant / brake fluid. I just got into the habit of that really and £55 .. cold winter etc felt like a value. However… even the cheapest sub-£10 kits look remarkably fail safe. I thought this procedure was more tedious than it is.  Armed with the repair manual and my uncles garage (recently cleared out so there’s space) which has central heating of its own, there’s really no excuse. It’s under a tenner for compliant fluid.  Even if I mess it up, I can just keep trying until I get it right. It’s not rocket science and I’ve done bigger harder jobs.  I think it’s a lesson learnt really. 

Although, even if the dealer is correct and I apologise, I’m not too impressed with their brick wall ‘despite your evidence, I believe the guy - why would he not do it and lie?’. That just doesn’t sit well with me. What I sort of expected last week when I first rang with my concerns, was some kind of explanation - some kind of ‘we understand your concern, but here’s how we DID do it whilst what your saying was the case’. For example, first 5 mins of the call, I asked why the wheels were baked on - they said they didn’t need to remove them. Quick Google, and some of your responses confirms that with their fancy lifts thats the way they did it. And immediately, no more concern over that - I told them I wasn’t aware but I understand that now. Then it’s just been about the valve covers not being touched.. honestly, they still haven’t really explained that.  

My desire to pursue this has mostly been the principle. I think they also maybe have that attitude because they were basically forced to honour the lower price of £55 (possibly as a loss or break even) just to keep me happy and avoid Toyota’s wrath, whilst continuing to charge others who don’t care the £80…  and therefore any notion of a refund, or a second job, - or maybe even doing it properly versus a possible reservoir fluid quick drain/refill - is totally out of the question for them. Might just be easier to burn bridges with me personally, and perhaps they don’t care for or want a customer like me - one that somewhat knows his stuff, checks the work and kicks off when something doesn’t add up.  I don’t think they really like customers like me. I’m not their bread and butter.  Personally I somewhat understand. I feel like that at work too when customers ask questions but I usually can take pride in the knowing that I have genuinely done the task to the best of my ability, and I’ve never worked somewhere that I didn’t feel comfortable to admit when I’ve either missed a part of the process, or even not had time to do a step which backfired. Perhaps that’s not their environment and if I go there I can’t expect that sort of situation. 

so in short, I’m going to check it and most likely replace it myself tomorrow and I’ll have a comprehensive video / evidence to share with you, possibly YouTube and the dealer too. It’ll be interesting what we find … I will report back when all is said and done. 

Massive thanks again. I think I should donate to the forum end of this month as the support has been phenomenal and a genuine source of comfort despite how it’s felt with the hassle and stress 

[avensis_2018]

Its simple, leave it easy and simple, make it simple! And for maintanence change from time to time the fluid in the tank under the hood.

Enjoy.

[2009joe]

16 hours ago, SB1500 said:

Hi everybody, thank you for the advice. I really, really appreciate it. This is one of the most serious problems I’ve had compared to my other threads here and I appreciate every single response and insight to the problem.  
 

not been well tonight but thankfully not the worst. All being well tomorrow, I’m planning to buy some fluid from Halfords and a one man bleeding kit (they’re surprisingly very cheap - watched some reviews / tutorials). 
 

I think tomorrow I’ll bleed one of the wheel brake lines up at my uncles garage. I’ll video it (ideally as a little video log or how to) - and so I have evidence of what comes out. As well as making 110% sure no air is left in should that be the case.. I’ll see if the fluid coming out looks visibly older / darker than that in the reservoir.  I might buy a turkey baster safely suck a tiny bit out of the reservoir for comparison.  
 

Going to buy some COMMA brand fluid. As much as I’d love to buy Toyota fluid, that means waiting to Monday and either a 30 mile drive, or buying it from the dealer in question … I want to do it tomorrow if I can. This stuff meets the criteria from the Avensis repair manual for my VIN; 

SAE J1704 or FMVSS No. 116 DOT 4

 

So, two outcomes - 

= Brake fluid comes out noticeably darker. Through comprehensive videoing, and collecting two samples - I’ll be able to present my findings to them this week.  I’ll then proceed to bleed them tomorrow - it’ll be done. And next time around in 2 years or 25k miles, I’ll buy genuine Toyota stuff for my obsession with genuine fluids. For now, I’m sure this stuff will be fine. Apparently 500ml should be enough for ‘most’ hydraulic brake systems.. 1L should give me enough headway to get it done. If not.. quick run to Halfords to buy some more. 
 

= Brake fluid comes out clean. Stellar clean, undeniably brand new, beyond a shadow of a doubt.  If that’s the case I’ll still try the other wheels.  It’ll probably mean I replace it anyways with my own… however.. that won’t hurt the car. Won’t cost too much time. And it’s a skill for doing this forever onward.  IF IT WAS CHANGED, I will give my dealership a ring. I’ll tell them what I found. And I’ll apologise for having essentially accused them of this, but hope that they’ve see where  been coming from all the same. I think that would be the honourable thing to do, as well as closing my case with Toyota and the franchise owners and letting them know that I made a misjudgement. 
 

however, in either case, no more taking it to the dealer for my gearbox oil, coolant and brake fluid changes. To be honest, I only did because I think last year, the genuine fluids weren’t far off the cost of the dealer changing it. Last year the car was in for the EGR Cooler recall so it felt right having had no service history to let them change the coolant / brake fluid. I just got into the habit of that really and £55 .. cold winter etc felt like a value. However… even the cheapest sub-£10 kits look remarkably fail safe. I thought this procedure was more tedious than it is.  Armed with the repair manual and my uncles garage (recently cleared out so there’s space) which has central heating of its own, there’s really no excuse. It’s under a tenner for compliant fluid.  Even if I mess it up, I can just keep trying until I get it right. It’s not rocket science and I’ve done bigger harder jobs.  I think it’s a lesson learnt really. 
 

Although, even if the dealer is correct and I apologise, I’m not too impressed with their brick wall ‘despite your evidence, I believe the guy - why would he not do it and lie?’. That just doesn’t sit well with me. What I sort of expected last week when I first rang with my concerns, was some kind of explanation - some kind of ‘we understand your concern, but here’s how we DID do it whilst what your saying was the case’. For example, first 5 mins of the call, I asked why the wheels were baked on - they said they didn’t need to remove them. Quick Google, and some of your responses confirms that with their fancy lifts thats the way they did it. And immediately, no more concern over that - I told them I wasn’t aware but I understand that now. Then it’s just been about the valve covers not being touched.. honestly, they still haven’t really explained that.  
 

My desire to pursue this has mostly been the principle. I think they also maybe have that attitude because they were basically forced to honour the lower price of £55 (possibly as a loss or break even) just to keep me happy and avoid Toyota’s wrath, whilst continuing to charge others who don’t care the £80…  and therefore any notion of a refund, or a second job, - or maybe even doing it properly versus a possible reservoir fluid quick drain/refill - is totally out of the question for them. Might just be easier to burn bridges with me personally, and perhaps they don’t care for or want a customer like me - one that somewhat knows his stuff, checks the work and kicks off when something doesn’t add up.  I don’t think they really like customers like me. I’m not their bread and butter.  Personally I somewhat understand. I feel like that at work too when customers ask questions but I usually can take pride in the knowing that I have genuinely done the task to the best of my ability, and I’ve never worked somewhere that I didn’t feel comfortable to admit when I’ve either missed a part of the process, or even not had time to do a step which backfired. Perhaps that’s not their environment and if I go there I can’t expect that sort of situation. 
 

so in short, I’m going to check it and most likely replace it myself tomorrow and I’ll have a comprehensive video / evidence to share with you, possibly YouTube and the dealer too. It’ll be interesting what we find … I will report back when all is said and done.  
 

Massive thanks again. I think I should donate to the forum end of this month as the support has been phenomenal and a genuine source of comfort despite how it’s felt with the hassle and stress 

When I was bleeding my breaks I have a pop bottle with a clear hose on it that goes over the caliper bleed screw tight so when comes out it don't go everywhere and clean plus no air in the system as bleeding breaks is a 2 man job as it's a pain 

[2009joe]

11 hours ago, avensis_2018 said:

Its simple, leave it easy and simple, make it simple! And for maintanence change from time to time the fluid in the tank under the hood.

Enjoy.

Sorry to bother you boss you were saying that you buy a pack of that diesel additive so you put it in regular to keep the injectors clean and dpf. What do you put in and how often do you use it in your car. Would you send me the link to the stuff you use. I used liquid Molly diesel purge when I change my diesel filter always as I think that helps clean out the system but tbh maybe dose nothing only waste my money in my wallet lol 

[Stivino]

32 minutes ago, 2009joe said:

bleeding breaks is a 2 man job

I always bleed my brakes on my own.  It's a one man job.

[SB1500]

Hey guys, for under £15 I picked this up this morning from Halfords. I've re-bled the brakes with some interesting stuff along the way. I'll share the video once I have it stitched together.  I'm still leaning toward them not having changed it because: 

Fluid from the lines is darker than the sample I took from the reservoir. 

The second I loosened the valves, the seep of fluid / moisture was starting... therefore I would have expected even a minor sign even from their state of the art tools / professional experience - can anyone comment on this? as if it's possible for them to do it without leaving a mark, then I might need to take that onboard. Buy my thought so far is that even minor staining of fluid would be present.. I suppose my entire doubt / fear depends on that being the case.  

[SB1500]

Here's the video... 

 

 

[2009joe]

4 hours ago, Stivino said:

I always bleed my brakes on my own.  It's a one man job.

aint u the man. u must have a broken arm patting yourself on your own back. well when you pump up the break peddle inside the car hard hold it then how do you get to the caliber to loosed screw out to get air out then tighten it again so that the break peddle needs to be pumped up hard again then the caliber bleeder needs loosed up then tightened up again to get all the air out. love to hear the way you do it lol 

[2009joe]

50 minutes ago, SB1500 said:

Here's the video... 

 

 

quick question shane im thinking of doing this to get a complete brake flush to complete new fluid how many pumps of the peddle do you have to do so its clean new fluid from the tank all the way to the brake caliber and doing it for all the wheels .im sure there be more pumps for the further away wheel and then the rear drivers side then the front passengers side then final the drivers side 

[SB1500]

1 minute ago, 2009joe said:

quick question shane im thinking of doing this to get a complete brake flush to complete new fluid how many pumps of the peddle do you have to do so its clean new fluid from the tank all the way to the brake caliber and doing it for all the wheels .im sure there be more pumps for the further away wheel and then the rear drivers side then the front passengers side then final the drivers side 

Honestly if you want to order the same kit and fluid from Halfords in Coleraine I’d come up some weekend and give you a hand with it. That kit makes it possible to do with one person but would always be handy as I had to walk back and forth between pedal, wheel and reservoir. 
 

If they don’t sort this out for me I’ll be coming up your way to Coleraine’s Toyota service centre to get my parts in the future. Seen that re-opened a while back but no sales, just service 

[2009joe]

3 minutes ago, SB1500 said:

Honestly if you want to order the same kit and fluid from Halfords in Coleraine I’d come up some weekend and give you a hand with it. That kit makes it possible to do with one person but would always be handy as I had to walk back and forth between pedal, wheel and reservoir. 
 

If they don’t sort this out for me I’ll be coming up your way to Coleraine’s Toyota service centre to get my parts in the future. Seen that re-opened a while back but no sales, just service 

dude that coleraine toyota service center is a joke sure i rang it one day to get genuine toyota engine oil and well they more or less told me they didnt have toyota oil in parts and if i wanted to i could get the same oil they use with all there cars servicing plus told me to bring my own jar and i said how much and well the price they told me was expensive than the place down your way bud. tbh thats why i had to go to your favorite place to get my gearbox genuine oil. that toyota service center in coleraint the only toyota about that place thats genuine is the sign as when you look at the forecourt you wont see many Toyotas for sale only other brands of cars. at least that place you used to go to is a genuine toyota garage. i made one of those bottle hose things with a plastic drink bottle and clear pipe that goes over the bleed nipple thats the way i do but id be kina worried about doing jobs like that myself as might cause air to get in but when  i think about it tbh it shouldn't .just im in the old ways where thats the way i did it shane lol 

[SB1500]

43 minutes ago, 2009joe said:

dude that coleraine toyota service center is a joke sure i rang it one day to get genuine toyota engine oil and well they more or less told me they didnt have toyota oil in parts and if i wanted to i could get the same oil they use with all there cars servicing plus told me to bring my own jar and i said how much and well the price they told me was expensive than the place down your way bud. tbh thats why i had to go to your favorite place to get my gearbox genuine oil. that toyota service center in coleraint the only toyota about that place thats genuine is the sign as when you look at the forecourt you wont see many Toyotas for sale only other brands of cars. at least that place you used to go to is a genuine toyota garage. i made one of those bottle hose things with a plastic drink bottle and clear pipe that goes over the bleed nipple thats the way i do but id be kina worried about doing jobs like that myself as might cause air to get in but when  i think about it tbh it shouldn't .just im in the old ways where thats the way i did it shane lol 

Oh really? That’s mad.  At least the dealers down here assured me any fluid they use, would be from Toyota bottles - and they seem to be telling the truth as any time I’ve asked to buy some they’ve had it in stock. In fairness the parts guy I deal with is great, knows his stuff, has the time of day for customers and usually fair pricing (albeit he probably doesn’t control that haha).  I’d be quite concerned if they’re NOT doing that up there!!! No harm to them but if they told me that I’d be contacting Toyota to let them know.  They’d just as soon void your warranty on a new car if they caught wind of any ‘malpractice’. 
 

The Fiat dealer I went to here before it closed (same franchise if you remember how the yard used to look before they converted the old dealership units into one big medical centre) admitted to me that they used motor factor fluids / seals and oil. Only Fiat parts. They used Castrol Magnatec on my old Panda. However, that’s good stuff.  And Fiat recommends some strange Italian sounding brand hard to source. Whereas Toyota has their own brand oil.  Of course it’s a new bottle for some oil companies oil but if it’s done with their quality control I’ll happily pay extra for it. 
 

I’m talking about Curtis Cars in Coleraine btw, Peugeot dealership I think but their Toyota ‘service and parts’ comes up on Toyota’s site now when you search for a local one.  Maybe now they have to use genuine parts? Otherwise I can’t see why anybody would pay a premium for the name / dealership feeling and get independent mechanic level parts / quality?   Suppose at this point nothing surprises me about the motor trade. 
 

just spotted in my video, for some reason at the front callipers, the fluid leaks out seemingly from under the nipple valve…. Should still be fine. Just messy. And less collected in my sample bottle but never realised that until I’ve watched it back 👀

[2009joe]

38 minutes ago, SB1500 said:

Oh really? That’s mad.  At least the dealers down here assured me any fluid they use, would be from Toyota bottles - and they seem to be telling the truth as any time I’ve asked to buy some they’ve had it in stock. In fairness the parts guy I deal with is great, knows his stuff, has the time of day for customers and usually fair pricing (albeit he probably doesn’t control that haha).  I’d be quite concerned if they’re NOT doing that up there!!! No harm to them but if they told me that I’d be contacting Toyota to let them know.  They’d just as soon void your warranty on a new car if they caught wind of any ‘malpractice’. 
 

The Fiat dealer I went to here before it closed (same franchise if you remember how the yard used to look before they converted the old dealership units into one big medical centre) admitted to me that they used motor factor fluids / seals and oil. Only Fiat parts. They used Castrol Magnatec on my old Panda. However, that’s good stuff.  And Fiat recommends some strange Italian sounding brand hard to source. Whereas Toyota has their own brand oil.  Of course it’s a new bottle for some oil companies oil but if it’s done with their quality control I’ll happily pay extra for it. 
 

I’m talking about Curtis Cars in Coleraine btw, Peugeot dealership I think but their Toyota ‘service and parts’ comes up on Toyota’s site now when you search for a local one.  Maybe now they have to use genuine parts? Otherwise I can’t see why anybody would pay a premium for the name / dealership feeling and get independent mechanic level parts / quality?   Suppose at this point nothing surprises me about the motor trade. 
 

just spotted in my video, for some reason at the front callipers, the fluid leaks out seemingly from under the nipple valve…. Should still be fine. Just messy. And less collected in my sample bottle but never realised that until I’ve watched it back 👀

aye that toyota dealer in coleraine tbh not as good as the one down by u boss i go to that one you go to get my oil there and few wee parts nothing big though .but kina worrys me when says toyota on the sign but they have a load of different cars there .thats what they told me when i rang about oil they said they give me some but tbh was not toyota oil so i passed .coleraine be handy for me but well if i go down to the one down by u dude then i ring them say leave it out il pick it up on a sat 

[Cyker]

The huge variation in customer service levels does kinda suck given they're all under the same Toyota branding...

It does seem like the smaller and family-owned dealers tend to be better on average than the big franchises, but not always

 

[Roy124]

I used a brake fluid change kit, Gunsons IIRC, many years ago.  One man and not difficult and no problems.

The kit is still available but I can't recommend Gunson now given the number of adverse reviews.

The point though is a one-man kit is easy to use.

[Stivino]

11 hours ago, 2009joe said:

aint u the man. u must have a broken arm patting yourself on your own back. well when you pump up the break peddle inside the car hard hold it then how do you get to the caliber to loosed screw out to get air out then tighten it again so that the break peddle needs to be pumped up hard again then the caliber bleeder needs loosed up then tightened up again to get all the air out. love to hear the way you do it lol 

As I've done it hundreds of times, it obviously is possible.  But, I won't even try to explain to you how it's done as I fear the very simple proceedure would go right over your head.

Perhaps you could ask Shane how he did it with his one man bleeding kit.

[Roy124]

Shane, I think you have blown any chance of apology from the dealer and have only the satisfaction of doing a good job yourself and telling them to their face. 

In my case, as I had an independent refill the hydraulics, they refunded my payment and I never went back again.

 

[Mjolinor]

It aint always possible single handed no matter what kit you have.

I have seen cars that will only bleed backwards by putting fluid in the bleed nipple and cars that need at least three people to bleed. My BMW motorbikes have to be bled from the caliper back and also have to stand for at least a day after that for the front brake to work.

Certainly in some cases one person can do it but it is by no means certain that they can until one tries.

 

[SB1500]

1 hour ago, Roy124 said:

blown any chance of apology from the dealer and have only the satisfaction of doing a good job yourself and telling them to their face

That might be true.  
 

I’ll have to just take my samples down and stay hush about how I obtained them, and allow them to think it was another garage or mechanic.. as that might help my case. Something tells me they’ll cling to their same old excuses. 
 

but as you say, can be happy that it’s done now and the car has what it needs at the very least 

[2009joe]

11 hours ago, Stivino said:

As I've done it hundreds of times, it obviously is possible.  But, I won't even try to explain to you how it's done as I fear the very simple proceedure would go right over your head.

Perhaps you could ask Shane how he did it with his one man bleeding kit.

aye think will ask shane he is a good spud not a know it all such as yourself .anyways i didnt ask your opinion anyways

[2009joe]

11 hours ago, Mjolinor said:

It aint always possible single handed no matter what kit you have.

I have seen cars that will only bleed backwards by putting fluid in the bleed nipple and cars that need at least three people to bleed. My BMW motorbikes have to be bled from the caliper back and also have to stand for at least a day after that for the front brake to work.

Certainly in some cases one person can do it but it is by no means certain that they can until one tries.

 

thank you but watch you will be tared and feathered for speaking out it been a 2 man job buddy 

[Stivino]

32 minutes ago, 2009joe said:

anyways i didnt ask your opinion anyways

Away you and pump your "break peddle".

[2009joe]

40 minutes ago, Stivino said:

Away you and pump your "break peddle".

in your saying very simple proceedure  XD  that is to do .at least when two is there it will be done right .you see i have m8ts that would be glad to help unlike you im sure you do plenty yourself as tbh i dont think you much friends to help u m8t :)