How much is enough?

[Roy124]

2 hours ago, mpm235 said:

The Governments fuel duty raised in 22/23 was £25.1 billion and they are reluctant to drop fuel duty to a reasonable level as this source of revenue is to vital

And it on a percentage of the cost of fuel by the company, the delivery cost, and the forecourt margin.

Fuel duty at 35% is levied on that, I am assuming on the total and not just the wholesale price.

Then a further 20% VAT on top of that.

Either way you pay 20% VAT on the 35% fuel duty.

1. The wholesale cost of petrol or diesel, determined by the price of oil. Oil is sold in US dollars so the strength of the pound also plays a role
2. Biofuel content, the cost of making fuel more eco-friendly
3. Retailer profit margins, the cut taken by garages and supermarkets who sell you the fuel
4. Delivery and distribution costs for taking the fuel from A to B
5. Fuel duty, the specific government tax on fuel
6. VAT, added on top of product-specific taxes.

[Roy124]

I may be wrong about the tax above but it just shows the lack of transparency.  We have VAT itemised on our bills so retailers can prove their product price is inflated by the Government. 

With VAT of 20% on fuel duty of 35%, the Government take on duty alone is 42%.  As it is a percentage, not a fixed figure, they have no incentive to lower the fuel duty.

[Roy124]

The high duty was originally designed to charge for road miles as a benefit to low milage drivers and a cost to foreign and high milage users.

As for foreign trucks they dodge this by fitting oversize fuel tanks. 

As compensation for higher fuel duty the annual excise duty was frozen and the nil rate for vintage cars was introduced. 

This was introduced by Ken Clark.

The retention of vehicle excise duty was too tempting for future chancellors to milk for more money.

Don't forget they also tax car parking.   They take VAT off the operators and even free supermarkets are taxed through rates. 

[Bper]

Alternatives reported as possible replacements or indeed additions to fuel duty have been  Pay-Per Mile motoring,Tax onTyres,Black box in all cars,Tax on EV charging.

The one that is being discussed and leaked as per normal to gauge public reaction is Pay-Per-Mile driving, Sadiq Khan has denied he would implement this charge in London no doubt the starting place for potential schemes but many in opposition do not believe he will not implement this.

The scheme will work by recording the mileage off the MOT certificate yearly, for the newer 3 year exempt vehicles a milage only certificate will be required.

A further idea was to introduce a national camera network but this has been seen as to costly to implement due to the countries remote road networks. However a double charge for using motorways and main roads would be introduced to make up for any shortfalls.

So its likely that at some stage at least one or more of these potential tax revenue or replacement schemes may well be introduced.

[Primus1]

We’re seeing prices falling because I suspect the government is pressuring the fuel companies to drop their prices, so inflation will be lower , then, in next week’s autumn statement the chancellor is hinting at tax cuts, don’t forget there’s an election looming, if ( god forbid) they get in again, then it will be business as usual…

[Bper]

Or this may have to do with the first new statutory fuel finder scheme, which would give drivers access to live, station-by-station fuel prices. Second, a new statutory monitoring body to hold the industry to account. The stations would be called out for overcharging. 

The talk was Jeremy Hunt may hold off any real tax cuts till nearer the election but who knows anything is possible. In regards to the Conservatives getting in again the alternative IMO is just as bad. We need a complete change in political Government.

[Haliotis]

The country is in such dire straits that I think it will not matter who wins the next election.  There is little room for any party to exercise their pet ideas, and the winners will probably be collecting a poison challis.

It may be that no single party relishes winning, and much prefer to be in a coalition - at least, then they can always claim not to have really supported the gaffs.  And we know there will be gaffs!

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, Bper said:

The scheme will work by recording the mileage off the MOT certificate yearly, for the newer 3 year exempt vehicles a milage only certificate will be required.

Oh ye innocent.

Do not believe a certificate would be free.  And there would be a cost attached to the MOT too.

Someone with the car off the road for a year would still pay a standing charge.

What about my annual trip to Perpignan?  That could equate to 25% of my annual mileage. 

That was 40 years ago but you see the point.

[Primus1]

54 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

The country is in such dire straits that I think it will not matter who wins the next election.  There is little room for any party to exercise their pet ideas, and the winners will probably be collecting a poison challis.

It may be that no single party relishes winning, and much prefer to be in a coalition - at least, then they can always claim not to have really supported the gaffs.  And we know there will be gaffs!

Miss whiplash gets my vote 

[Bper]

24 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

Oh ye innocent.

Do not believe a certificate would be free.  And there would be a cost attached to the MOT too.

Someone with the car off the road for a year would still pay a standing charge.

What about my annual trip to Perpignan?  That could equate to 25% of my annual mileage. 

That was 40 years ago but you see the point.

Yep agreed but none of this would be of benefit to us regardless. But one way or another you can bet your bottom dollar as with the congestion charge and ULEZ one of these will be introduced or elements of all of them at some point.

[Bper]

9 minutes ago, Primus1 said:

Miss whiplash gets my vote 

I thought it was only the MP's could have the whip given or taken away.

[Bper]

For those of us including myself who are interested in how long fuel tax has been around. Incredibly, fuel duty has been around for over a century with a petrol duty first introduced as part of the Finance Act 1908 - which was also called the 'People's Budget'. It set out a taxation of a thruppence (3d) per gallon. 

By 1915, this had doubled to 6d, albeit with a 50 per cent rebate for commercial vehicles. However, just four years later it was abolished under the Finance Act 1919 in light of the first introduction of vehicle taxation and the tax disc. Unlike Vehicle Excise Duty today, taxation then was calculated in accordance to the horsepower rating of a car.

 

[Roy124]

2 hours ago, Bper said:

the horsepower rating of a car.

Thus opening another can of worms.

What exactly was HP?  Was a Standard 8 taxed at 8 HP when it was actually 28 bhp?

My Ford Anglia was about 1000cc and 10 HP.  It was 39 bhp.

My Trimph 1300 was about 1300cc and 61 bhp.

The SAAB 99 was 1709/80 and 1854/86

Suddenly it all reverses.  My Yaris Cross at 1500cc has 106 bhp

[Roy124]

IIRC the HP value limited many car specs in order to get a lower tax band.

Now we have CO2 emissions being fringged or specs limited to avoid a tax hike.

[Haliotis]

12 hours ago, Roy124 said:

IIRC the HP value limited many car specs in order to get a lower tax band.

Now we have CO2 emissions being fringged or specs limited to avoid a tax hike.

One way to avoid the tax hike is to go for a lower spec vehicle, and fit/have fitted the OE more luxurious after market components when you already have the vehicle.

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, Haliotis said:

One way to avoid the tax hike is to go for a lower spec vehicle, and fit/have fitted the OE more luxurious after market components when you already have the vehicle.

Sneaky.

Certainly buy the base model and post delivery get the soare wheel, boot trim etc. 

[Mojo1010]

22 hours ago, Haliotis said:

One way to avoid the tax hike is to go for a lower spec vehicle, and fit/have fitted the OE more luxurious after market components when you already have the vehicle.

A lot will be classed as modifications, like getting tinted windows done or bigger alloys. Accessories like spare wheel is fine. 

Anyway petrol around me, fill up 20L at 1.477 last week. Now is lower at 1.437

 

[Roy124]

Stamford and Grantham Shell, frequently a little different  have both been 149.9 for a week.

[davidif]

On 11/20/2023 at 11:58 AM, Roy124 said:

Sneaky.

Certainly buy the base model and post delivery get the soare wheel, boot trim etc. 

Roy, I'm sure you can get an ointment for that🤣

[Bper]

Local Morrisons down again from 147.9p - 146.9p still no real media coverage as to why prices seem to be falling.

[Big_D]

Our local Esso down from 156.9p to 151.9p. The Esso a few miles down the road is down from 148.9p to 146.9p

[Cyker]

8 hours ago, Bper said:

Local Morrisons down again from 147.9p - 146.9p still no real media coverage as to why prices seem to be falling.

I think 90% of media is just click-bait now, and good news apparently isn't good enough click-bait.

One of the local supermarkets broke the status quo and dropped to 144.9 - I'm hoping this starts a price war with the other 2 soon  

I'm still on my Texaco 149.9 and probably won't need to refill until this dip finishes and they go up again, knowing my luck!!!

 

[Bper]

On our travels today we noticed 4 petrol stations whose prices have dropped between 4p and 6p from what they had previously been.

It must be welcomed that prices are dropping but then the energy cap has just gone up to increase prices for the average home by £95 a year.

Talk about give with one hand and then take with the other.

[Rhymes with Paris]

17 minutes ago, Bper said:

It must be welcomed that prices are dropping but then the energy cap has just gone up to increase prices for the average home by £95 a year.

Just going to the pharmacy round the corner earlier today, I had to get the car warm, wasting petrol some might say.

Leave the heating on at home, and will have it on all night.

It's a bit raw round these here parts.

It's what's called an inelastic demand in the language of economics I believe.

 

[Haliotis]

14 hours ago, Rhymes with Paris said:

14 hours ago, Bper said:

On our travels today we noticed 4 petrol stations whose prices have dropped between 4p and 6p from what they had previously been.

It must be welcomed that prices are dropping but then the energy cap has just gone up to increase prices for the average home by £95 a year.

Talk about give with one hand and then take with the other.

 

Are you surprised, Paul?    It is a frequent practice to drop energy prices in the warmer months, then hike them up to fleece us when we have to heat our homes.  The advice to lower boiler temperatures and/or thermostat settings is not a practical option - I don’t feel the cold as much as my wife does, and she will wrap up well whilst I am in a T-shirt.  So the heating stays set at a comfortable level.  

I grew up in a terraced house, with a coal fire and no other form of heating.  The warm rooms were the living room and kitchen. In wintry weather, thick wooden blankets and hot water bottles were the order for bedtime, and hygiene performed at the kitchen sink, with the gas oven lit and the door open.  And the WC was “down the yard”.

Most of the older terraced houses were demolished as being “unfit for habitation” - now, the energy wing of the government is pushing for us to cut back on the use of our C.H. And, indirectly, telling us to run our homes in an environmental manner not unlike that of a basic terraced house.

Ofgem is supposed to operate in the interests of the whole population, but on occasions have openly admitted that price caps were set to protect the viability of the energy companies.

And standing charges were supposed to be for the purpose of maintaining the grid networks - now they are fiddled to support the kidology that unit prices for energy are kept at respectable levels.

As for “green energy”, what use is it if most of the general public cannot support it?