2022 RAV4 stolen

[kucyk]

17 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

Unless and until there is an official statement from Toyota themselves it is, at best, unverified conjecture.

There aren’t going to be any official statements on the car’s safety measures or claims about its security because the situation is constantly evolving. They would expose themselves to lawsuits.

All you can get from them is that note floating around about them doing their best to make the car secure but bla bla bla ...

[Doubletalkjive]

48 minutes ago, philip42h said:

I suspect some of these posts will get deleted (again) - you are linking to material from a group that are focused on 'hacking' vehicles which, while it may be interesting and informative, is probably not something that this forum wishes to promote. I speak as a forum user only! 😉

However, there is an interesting throw away: "They've implemented a MAC (Message Authentication Code) from AUTOSAR ... All TSS3 vehicles will incorporate this MAC thing unfortunately...". Note the "unfortunately". But fortunately for us, it hints that the fix we seek may arrive with TSS 3 ...

Good point! 🙂 

[Nick72]

Wow this thread is still going and still continues to be informative. Thank you. I learned about Toyota protection plates! Sounds like a reasonable solution and price.

My take on all this is security is a layered process. Like an onion. You add layers. And just like the safety swiss cheese model you avoid the holes in your cheese slice lining up with one on the next slice.

Feels like the most affordable and visible physical security deterrent is a big hardened steel steering wheel lock. I've got one of these following @ernieb recommendations. It's a good lock although you got to put the key in fully and wiggle or you'll get into a panic as I once did struggling to get it off the steering wheel when I was literally in the middle of nowhere. Operator incompetence I suspected.

Anything physical that's under the surface or anything electrical (like another immobilizer) or anything cyber related (like encryption on the CANbus which quite frankly should be a standard thing these days since it has been cheaply doable for ten or fifteen years) needs to be advertised to the thief. Otherwise they're just going to make a mess of the car until they realise it's not coming with them.

I left the Merc (AMG) in lots of dodgy places. Only time I had a problem was actually parked outside my own house. End of a quiet cul de sac in a nice area. They got in using the transponder relay method. They took a few quid in coins but didn't take some expensive items like a laser torch etc. Unfortunately for them they couldn't start it. In return one of them had blown their nose all over the backs of the front seats and wiped snot everywhere. I could only assume they weren't car to order car thieves but just opportunists having bought a gadget from eBay and looking what they could steal from inside a lot of people's cars.

Never had an issue with the RAV. And I've left it in some pretty dodgy spots in Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow, plus some other places in the North, and Bristol, Oxford and Swindon. On the road and in makeshift unattended car parks. Always had the steering lock on and nothing on display. Possibly lucky. But at the same time, because it's a company car, I take much more risk in where I leave it, to boost my convenience. And do it a lot. 

That all said, I'd sooner not have the hassle of filling out the paperwork, claiming for my mountaineering and survival gear in the boot and elsewhere, and waiting months for a replacement RAV. 

If it were my own car I'd paid for with a long term vested interest in it and insurance to worry about, I'd definitely...

 

A. Be careful where I left it.

B. Put deterrent cameras up on the house if it were outside.

C. Put a big easily visible steering lock on it.

D. Fit all manufacturer recommended measures. Protection plates and possibly a seperate immobiliser, provided it didn't cause issues and didn't cost more than 400 quid.

E. Put stickers in the window of a really angry version of me choking someone out whilst putting a Japanese short sword though another assailant's stomach.

 

I wonder what they've done on the GR Sport PHEV if anything to fix these issues? Since I'll be swapping from the 2021 R4P to one of these in August. Curious only. Doesn't make a difference to me. I'll just put the steering lock on.

[ELD1970]

Three out of the four stolen cars in the container were RAV4’s 😳

[GBgraham]

19 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Wow this thread is still going and still continues to be informative. Thank you. I learned about Toyota protection plates! Sounds like a reasonable solution and price.

My take on all this is security is a layered process. Like an onion. You add layers. And just like the safety swiss cheese model you avoid the holes in your cheese slice lining up with one on the next slice.

Feels like the most affordable and visible physical security deterrent is a big hardened steel steering wheel lock. I've got one of these following @ernieb recommendations. It's a good lock although you got to put the key in fully and wiggle or you'll get into a panic as I once did struggling to get it off the steering wheel when I was literally in the middle of nowhere. Operator incompetence I suspected.

Anything physical that's under the surface or anything electrical (like another immobilizer) or anything cyber related (like encryption on the CANbus which quite frankly should be a standard thing these days since it has been cheaply doable for ten or fifteen years) needs to be advertised to the thief. Otherwise they're just going to make a mess of the car until they realise it's not coming with them.

I left the Merc (AMG) in lots of dodgy places. Only time I had a problem was actually parked outside my own house. End of a quiet cul de sac in a nice area. They got in using the transponder relay method. They took a few quid in coins but didn't take some expensive items like a laser torch etc. Unfortunately for them they couldn't start it. In return one of them had blown their nose all over the backs of the front seats and wiped snot everywhere. I could only assume they weren't car to order car thieves but just opportunists having bought a gadget from eBay and looking what they could steal from inside a lot of people's cars.

Never had an issue with the RAV. And I've left it in some pretty dodgy spots in Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow, plus some other places in the North, and Bristol, Oxford and Swindon. On the road and in makeshift unattended car parks. Always had the steering lock on and nothing on display. Possibly lucky. But at the same time, because it's a company car, I take much more risk in where I leave it, to boost my convenience. And do it a lot. 

That all said, I'd sooner not have the hassle of filling out the paperwork, claiming for my mountaineering and survival gear in the boot and elsewhere, and waiting months for a replacement RAV. 

If it were my own car I'd paid for with a long term vested interest in it and insurance to worry about, I'd definitely...

 

A. Be careful where I left it.

B. Put deterrent cameras up on the house if it were outside.

C. Put a big easily visible steering lock on it.

D. Fit all manufacturer recommended measures. Protection plates and possibly a seperate immobiliser, provided it didn't cause issues and didn't cost more than 400 quid.

E. Put stickers in the window of a really angry version of me choking someone out whilst putting a Japanese short sword though another assailant's stomach.

 

I wonder what they've done on the GR Sport PHEV if anything to fix these issues? Since I'll be swapping from the 2021 R4P to one of these in August. Curious only. Doesn't make a difference to me. I'll just put the steering lock on.

As I haven't seen it mentioned (I may have missed it) and I'm not sure if this just applies to our specs here but mine is also fitted with a factory fitted intrusion alarm. I haven't a clue what protection this gives over the standard immobiliser, it may have a secondary anti theft circuit . . .but who knows? 

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, GBgraham said:

As I haven't seen it mentioned (I may have missed it) and I'm not sure if this just applies to our specs here but mine is also fitted with a factory fitted intrusion alarm. I haven't a clue what protection this gives over the standard immobiliser, it may have a secondary anti theft circuit . . .but who knows? 

Same. Only reason I know is there's a button to disable it on the roof console I think. I assume it's for locking the car but your kids or pets are in it as you pay at the petrol station desk or whatever. Or just because you've had enough of them and need a half hour rest. 😂

[ColinBarber]

On 12/30/2023 at 12:44 PM, GBgraham said:

As I haven't seen it mentioned (I may have missed it) and I'm not sure if this just applies to our specs here but mine is also fitted with a factory fitted intrusion alarm. I haven't a clue what protection this gives over the standard immobiliser, it may have a secondary anti theft circuit . . .but who knows? 

Unfortunately it offers no protection to the CAN bus attacks. All the Lexus RX and ES models stolen by this method have the Toyota/Lexus alarm installed (alarm is standard fitment on all Lexus models).

[Doubletalkjive]

If only… 

 

[Iain_M]

Doubletalkjive, if only lol

[ColinB]

I popped into my local Toyota dealer (Snows in Waterlooville, Hampshire) and asked about the protection plate. The service guy was aware, however he said that the London area was being prioritised and they couldn't offer the £70 deal there. I will contact Toyota cs and ask them about it - although whilst I was at the dealers I tried the new C-HR for size and was quite impressed. A test drive is on the cards next week.... 🤔

Colin

[Rambler56]

10 minutes ago, ColinB said:

I popped into my local Toyota dealer (Snows in Waterlooville, Hampshire) and asked about the protection plate. The service guy was aware, however he said that the London area was being prioritised and they couldn't offer the £70 deal there.

You appear to have been sidestepped at the dealers!  Email Toyota CR directly, there are plenty of earlier comments in this thread with details of what/how/where to ask, but in a nutshell ask Toyota Customer Relations about it and ask them to liaise directly with your preferred dealer on your behalf.  The only contact I had with my dealer was asking them to confirm the plates were on the job card when it went in for its first service.  

[Cyker]

Yeah, for areas not targeted by the campaign the request has to come from 'the top', so if you e-mail cr@toyota.co.uk and explain, they should cascade it down to your chosen dealer

 

[Doubletalkjive]

Called Churchill (the insurance company) to get a quote for the RAV4 PHEV which is being delivered in a few weeks. They say they can’t insure it as it is a ‘high risk’ vehicle. A quick trip to price comparison sites obviously reveal plenty who will. I just found it interesting that some insurers are not willing to insure…

[Torrox]

11 hours ago, Doubletalkjive said:

Called Churchill (the insurance company) to get a quote for the RAV4 PHEV which is being delivered in a few weeks. They say they can’t insure it as it is a ‘high risk’ vehicle. A quick trip to price comparison sites obviously reveal plenty who will. I just found it interesting that some insurers are not willing to insure…

I am in the same boat, after reading your comment I phoned Churchill insurance to ask if they will change insurance from my current car to the Rav4 Phev gr sport. Follow inputting the new details they said yes they would insure the new car. May be the refusal is due to geographical locations.

[Strangely Brown]

16 hours ago, Doubletalkjive said:

Called Churchill (the insurance company) to get a quote for the RAV4 PHEV which is being delivered in a few weeks. They say they can’t insure it as it is a ‘high risk’ vehicle. A quick trip to price comparison sites obviously reveal plenty who will. I just found it interesting that some insurers are not willing to insure…

Your location says Surrey. How close to London are you? It could well be your postcode more than the vehicle itself.

[Doubletalkjive]

Close to the border of London/Surrey. The sales person did say ‘high risk’ vehicle with no reference to the location. However given the experience that Torrox had it sounds like it must be the postcode (or me 🤣). Admiral will insure, think I will go with them. 

[Nick72]

Thank god my insurance is covered by a blanket corporate policy, business and pleasure. Over 25s. No excess. I recall the merry go around before I went down the company car journey 7 or so years ago. Insurance going up 10 to 25% for no reason each year. Having to phone around and go online. Drive me nuts. 

Risk here is Toyota may have produced a difficult to insure car because it is so easy to steal, so fast (PHEV), and AWD for driving across the fields as the coppers are chasing them. Plus plenty loot room!

[Roger_N]

It appears to me that the rising cost of insurance in part is down the new generation of cars with more electronics and HV batteries, the cost of these items are extortionate and even damage to the wiring loom means it needs replacing, as dealers will not take any chance of being at fault for any problems that may arise, and that’s before you consider the theft side.

I can’t see it changing any time soon.

[pandor83]

I just put on a personalised plate and called up the insurance company, I'm about 1/2 into my year and weirdly, I actually get a discount on my premium of £20! ...but with the admin charge of £50 I still end up paying them.

[P_J]

Some feedback on this subject. 
I've just had a response to an email I sent to Toyota GB regarding the 2024MY PHEV I have on order, and requesting the protection plates be sent to dealer to protect against CANbus attack. They said:

Quote

"The electrical architecture in your RAV4 PHEV is different to the RAV4 hybrid, and so it is not affected by the type of theft you've mentioned.
Accordingly, the theft deterrent protection plates are not recommended for the RAV4 PHEV". 

They went on to confirm it has alarm, immobiliser, motion and tilt sensors etc. 

Not sure which PHEVs this applies to, other than 'mine', but does this go some way to confirming that PHEVs are rolling out with at least signed comms on the bus? 
I must say I feel a little uneasy having no plates at all, having thought that this was the best deterrent I could get, prior to this email. 
Wonder if I should leave a printed copy on the dash when I park up for the night 😆

[Torrox]

7 hours ago, P_J said:

Some feedback on this subject. 
I've just had a response to an email I sent to Toyota GB regarding the 2024MY PHEV I have on order, and requesting the protection plates be sent to dealer to protect against CANbus attack. They said:

They went on to confirm it has alarm, immobiliser, motion and tilt sensors etc. 

Not sure which PHEVs this applies to, other than 'mine', but does this go some way to confirming that PHEVs are rolling out with at least signed comms on the bus? 
I must say I feel a little uneasy having no plates at all, having thought that this was the best deterrent I could get, prior to this email. 
Wonder if I should leave a printed copy on the dash when I park up for the night 😆

Could you please tell me Toyota GB email address so that I can ask them the same question and see what they say. Thanks.

[Torrox]

Just realised that I can contact Toyota if I logged in. I seached before but couldn't find it as I didn't logged in.

[Tove]

You definitely need to contact Toyota CR rather than your dealers about having the plates fitted, unless your dealers have done it before.  There are still some who have said they haven't heard about it, same as the cable corrosion issue!  Toyota will give you a case number and request you supply them with your chosen dealer.  Mine said they hadn't heard of it when I contacted them late last year, and I was fobbed off until I contacted Toyota.  Now my car is having them fitted.

[George22]

9 hours ago, Torrox said:

Could you please tell me Toyota GB email address so that I can ask them the same question and see what they say. Thanks.

It’s  cr@toyota.co.uk

[P_J]

13 hours ago, Torrox said:

Could you please tell me Toyota GB email address so that I can ask them the same question and see what they say. Thanks.

It would be good to get a second opinion on this. 
If the PHEV is not susceptible to the CANBUS attack, then there seems no point getting the plates fitted, and the stock is better retained for those that do. 
And if so, would be good if the insurers could reflect that in their offered premiums.