12v battery maintenance, issues, etc.

[Chas G]

13 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

It would appear some owners are never going to get along with the hybrid, it doesn't need to be fully charged it only needs to be charged enough to start the car the next time you use it, if you had an EV and got home with half a battery of charge left and you only planned to do a 10 mile round trip to the shops the next day and another 10 miles to work and back  the day after would you put it on charge to make sure it was 100% charged the answer is no there is no need the same applies to the hybrid if you are going to drive it a few times a week it'll be fine if you are going to drive it 20 miles a week on two separate days you are going to run into problems the same problem you would run into if you did the same mileage in an ICE, the ICE battery will eventually go flat it you dont replace the power used to start it.

So why do start/stop petrol engined cars not have a problem?

Seems to me their charging system works and refills the Battery in minutes rather than the dubious hybrid flogged by toyota.

The traction Battery should be charging the 12 volt Battery like an alternator instead of waiting until it drops below a level from which it takes too long to recover to full charge.

[Graham47]

1 hour ago, Chas G said:

waiting until it drops below a level from which it takes too long to recover to full charge.

Because, as has already been explained, the Battery doesn’t need to be maintained at full charge (no engine to crank, esp. in cold weather) but at a level that’s sufficient to activate the computers.. a much lower voltage.  12.3v (in your case) would be more than sufficient for that.

No idea why you felt the need to charge the Battery.

[Chas G]

35 minutes ago, Graham47 said:

Because, as has already been explained, the battery doesn’t need to be maintained at full charge (no engine to crank, esp. in cold weather) but at a level that’s sufficient to activate the computers.. a much lower voltage.  12.3v (in your case) would be more than sufficient for that.

No idea why you felt the need to charge the battery.

I charged  the Battery because the voltage just steadily goes down after every journey.

Do I just wait until it wont start or hope that Dog will intervene and get the charging system to actually do something useful.

The only time I have seen the voltage actually go up is when I drove back from reading 40 miles away which took longer than an hour.

[Dala]

I think the problem is when it drops below 12.0V.
This low voltage will damage the Battery so much that it will never hold its capacity.

If I drive for a long time every day - there will be no problem - 11.7V is enough to start the system (I tested this voltage before unlocking the car).

 

I regularly ride 300-500km/week
In the summer, I charge with a solar panel when I park for more than 1 day.
In winter, I use CTEK twice a month.
After 3.5 years, today I measured these values:

 

I think it's time for a new car Battery.

[anchorman]

9 hours ago, Dala said:

I think the problem is when it drops below 12.0V.
This low voltage will damage the battery so much that it will never hold its capacity.

If I drive for a long time every day - there will be no problem - 11.7V is enough to start the system (I tested this voltage before unlocking the car).

 

I regularly ride 300-500km/week
In the summer, I charge with a solar panel when I park for more than 1 day.
In winter, I use CTEK twice a month.
After 3.5 years, today I measured these values:

 

I think it's time for a new car battery.

Frankly, if I had to chuff about with meters and gauges analysing data like this I’d sell the lot and walk.  I’ve never measured anything on any car including numerous hybrids and I’ve never had one fail to start.  If I go away for a month I put it on a CTEK but if something made it awkward to do so I would not lose one iota of sleep.  For those under the impression that it doesn’t apply to conventional systems, wrong, it does.  Comments like that or comments that fuel related issues don’t exist come from people that have never routinely worked on cars.  You can make yourself in any second hand car dealer with all the wires trailing about to Battery boosters and chargers.  

[Roy124]

46 minutes ago, anchorman said:

Frankly, if I had to chuff about with meters and gauges analysing data like this I’d sell the lot and walk.

Thinking back in time, in the 60s there was a regular market for additional instrumentation such as oil pressure gauges, ammeters and volt meters.  Also additional panels to hold these and additional switches for fog and spotlights. 

Cars ran perfectly well without these bells, whistles,  or even screen washers or radios, yet many fitted them.

As a child I am sure I was not alone in destroying a clockwork toy to find how it worked. 

[anchorman]

34 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

Thinking back in time, in the 60s there was a regular market for additional instrumentation such as oil pressure gauges, ammeters and volt meters.  Also additional panels to hold these and additional switches for fog and spotlights. 

Cars ran perfectly well without these bells, whistles,  or even screen washers or radios, yet many fitted them.

As a child I am sure I was not alone in destroying a clockwork toy to find how it worked. 

I still pull things apart to see how they work and I’ll add practical things like a rear interior light but the car has got an array of displays to advise about Battery condition.  Each to their own I suppose.  

[Roy124]

23 minutes ago, anchorman said:

array of displays to advise about battery condition.

Like Blackpool illuminations when the voltage drops?

What are these arrays as I seem unable to find them?

[Graham47]

1 hour ago, Roy124 said:

in the 60s there was a regular market for additional instrumentation such as oil pressure gauges, ammeters and volt meters.

Yes ….. if I remember they were called “worry guages” because people spent the whole time obsessing about what the gauge was doing !

[Roy124]

Nothing changes then?

 

[Countryside]

3 hours ago, anchorman said:

Frankly, if I had to chuff about with meters and gauges analysing data like this I’d sell the lot and walk.  I’ve never measured anything on any car including numerous hybrids and I’ve never had one fail to start.  If I go away for a month I put it on a CTEK but if something made it awkward to do so I would not lose one iota of sleep.  For those under the impression that it doesn’t apply to conventional systems, wrong, it does.  Comments like that or comments that fuel related issues don’t exist come from people that have never routinely worked on cars.  You can make yourself in any second hand car dealer with all the wires trailing about to battery boosters and chargers.  

Lexus LBX here I come better made than the Yaris cross and made in Japan ! What car car of the year !

[jthspace]

15 hours ago, Chas G said:

So why do start/stop petrol engined cars not have a problem?

My Mazda ND has a strange system, basically the alternator runs at 25v and charges a big capacitor (made from coconut matting, I read)  up under the wheel arch.  The alternator stops and starts as and when needed to charge the capacitor or Battery.  The stop start system uses the capacitor to "run" the electrics when the engine is stopped.  No 3 cylinder always stops at / near TDC and is charged with petrol.  When the clutch is touched (or the capacitor is discharged) No 3 cylinder fires and starts the engine; the starter motor is, apparently, rarely needed.

Adds a ton of weight and complexity and has, over 5 years, not saved enough CO2 or whatever to meet the award of a new tree, according to the on-board display.  It has kept the EU or whoever happy that my car is ever-so-slightly less polluting and Mazda has saved a ton of tax.

On an MX5 weekend club run, 8 of us, added all of our miles together and bought two trees as an offset to the petrol used.  We do this regularly.

My 2 litre 190 bhp MX5 ND will achieve between 45 and 50 mpg on a run when driven sensibly.  Can't remember it ever giving less than 38 mpg even on a South-North 280 mile A1 run.

OH - back on subject - leave it over a week and the Battery will be flat due to alarm, key sensing, witchery etc.

[anchorman]

12 minutes ago, Countryside said:

Lexus LBX here I come better made than the Yaris cross and made in Japan ! What car car of the year !

I’ll tell you what Battery it has in March!

[anchorman]

1 minute ago, jthspace said:

My Mazda ND has a strange system, basically the alternator runs at 25v and charges a big capacitor (made from coconut matting, I read)  up under the wheel arch.  The alternator stops and starts as and when needed to charge the capacitor or battery.  The stop start system uses the capacitor to "run" the electrics when the engine is stopped.  No 3 cylinder always stops at / near TDC and is charged with petrol.  When the clutch is touched (or the capacitor is discharged) No 3 cylinder fires and starts the engine; the starter motor is, apparently, rarely needed.

Adds a ton of weight and complexity and has, over 5 years, not saved enough CO2 or whatever to meet the award of a new tree, according to the on-board display.  It has kept the EU or whoever happy that my car is ever-so-slightly less polluting and Mazda has saved a ton of tax.

On an MX5 weekend club run, 8 of us, added all of our miles together and bought two trees as an offset to the petrol used.  We do this regularly.

My 2 litre 190 bhp MX5 ND will achieve between 45 and 50 mpg on a run when driven sensibly.  Can't remember it ever giving less than 38 mpg even on a South-North 280 mile A1 run.

I’m familiar with that system. Yours in isolation might not save much but collectively it will.  Mazda are much underrated.   They are one of the most innovative manufacturers in the world.  

[Roy124]

41 minutes ago, anchorman said:

 Mazda are much underrated.   They are one of the most innovative manufacturers in the world.  

Individuality is being squeezed out by the mediocre.  

SAAB were unique; other owners would wave congratulate each on their foresight. 

Citroën with the 2CV or DS21.

NSU 

[Cyker]

It's because that stuff costs money but isn't seen, and most people don't want to pay for it; What most people will pay for is shiny colours, big rims and soft plastics, apparently  

Like with these new Yarisuseisiesiees, we get so many posts complaining about something and saying they'll going to get rid of the car over utterly trivial things, seemingly having no appreciation for what an amazing car it is - I don't know of anything so agile and responsive that can at the same time still return 70-80mpg, or even 60-70 if you're not even trying.

Yeah there's a lot of annoying stuff like the apparent lack of sound insulation, the relatively bad NVH, the lack of a rear interior light, and the interior lights being useless generally, and the whole 12v Battery thing some people (Still not me!  ) are having, but these are all relatively minor and/or have known fixes. But people still keep going to other brands with far less reliability yet those get a pass when they need to replace a turbo or a gearbox or something.

I just don't get it - Do people buy cars just to look at them and not drive them or something?? Mine's nearly up to 40k miles and I haven't even had it 3 years yet!  

 

3 hours ago, anchorman said:

I’m familiar with that system. Yours in isolation might not save much but collectively it will.  Mazda are much underrated.   They are one of the most innovative manufacturers in the world.  

Yeah, I always feel bad they don't get more results for the effort they put in - Like most recently the Skyactiv-X engine; It was supposed to be the most innovative engine in modern times, having the efficiency of a diesel with the cleanliness of a petrol, but despite all the fanfare it's practically dropped off the radar!

And bizarre things like making lower compression-ratio diesels, which you'd think would be awful, but somehow had better power and emissions!

But still all they're really known for is the MX5!

[Countryside]

4 hours ago, anchorman said:

I’ll tell you what battery it has in March!

Have you ordered one ?

[Roy124]

Deleted

[anchorman]

46 minutes ago, Countryside said:

Have you ordered one ?

Not me personally but a close friend and I’ll be fitting a towbar and dashcams so all the trim out.  

[Chas G]

@cyker I have just done about 40 miles and most of it in stop/start traffic and I have to admit that my  Yaris Cross was excellent. Averaged 73mpg.

I think once the leads have been fitted to the Battery and the charger is mounted on the garage wall so I can just pull in and plug in rather than lift the bonnet I will be happy.

Having looked at VW Tcross/Troc and Skoda Kamiq/Karoq today has made me question whether I want to lose £6k on trade in and then have to add £8k-£12k to change my car. On balance, if I can just plug in without faffing about, the answer is no.

 

Ps I still think the 12 volt Battery charging system is poor and compromised by the "need" to prioritise the traction Battery to get max mpg.

 

[Countryside]

6 minutes ago, anchorman said:

Not me personally but a close friend and I’ll be fitting a towbar and dashcams so all the trim out.  

I would think it will be a new Japanese Battery as being built in Japan Lexus is the luxury division of Toyota quality ! 

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, Chas G said:

 

I think once the leads have been fitted to the battery and the charger is mounted on the garage wall so I can just pull in and plug in rather than lift the bonnet I will be happy 

🙂

[Cyker]

3 hours ago, Chas G said:

Ps I still think the 12 volt battery charging system is poor and compromised by the "need" to prioritise the traction battery to get max mpg.

I honestly think if they'd fitted Yuasa batteries instead of the mewtwo ones this thread wouldn't exist... but Toyota does weird stuff like this. It's like some weird blind spot or something, and I can only imagine there's some jobsworth manager somewhere in the chain who has to assert their authority and ignore the good advice from everyone else just to have their own way or something...

Like where did this Battery make even come from? I've never heard of it being fitted to any previous vehicle!

[Dala]

I received an answer to my question directly from Turkey only after 14 days - strange company MUTLU 😏

[Countryside]

9 hours ago, Cyker said:

I honestly think if they'd fitted Yuasa batteries instead of the mewtwo ones this thread wouldn't exist... but Toyota does weird stuff like this. It's like some weird blind spot or something, and I can only imagine there's some jobsworth manager somewhere in the chain who has to assert their authority and ignore the good advice from everyone else just to have their own way or something...

Like where did this battery make even come from? I've never heard of it being fitted to any previous vehicle!

Is the yuasa Battery made in Japan ?